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 Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism 
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New post Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
I found a sermon of Abp. Lefebvre, and he noted the possibility of sedevacantism. I had a friend translate most of it from the original French, and I think it is a good thing to show rabid anti-sedes.

Quote:
They ask me, what do you think of the Pope? Not much, it's a mystery, an improbable mystery. It's a great tragedy for the Church, because ultimately, who's with the Pope is with the Church, is with the unity of the Church... But there is also a question mark. When we say "How is it possible that the Pope, if he's truly Pope, successor of St. Peter, he must in consequence have the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, he must be protected by the Holy Spirit in what he does, because he's the Pope we have the promise of our Lord that he will be protected in upholding the faith... Therefore someone who does these kinds of things is not Pope...This Pope is doing things that are so contrary to the faith, against the Church, so destructive to the faith of the Church, and the Church itself... But it's not the Pope, it's his entourage... Well, here's one solution. The Pope is a prisoner, the Pope is a martyr, the Pope is locked in, the Pope isn't free to do what he wants, the Pope is drugged, the Pope is half-crazy, the Pope is I don't know what, he's a human wreck who is led around and manipulated...That's one solution. It's a solution that I'd say is astonishingly supported by many visionaries, people who think they have visions, I'd say they are diabolical in origin, these visions.
These visions of those who say that the Holy Father is a prisoner, that the Holy Father is somehow incapable, that he's drugged, for the thirteen years that he's been there he has no responsibility for anything. They've locked this man up and then eventually we get to the point where there's another Pope who is imprisoned under the Vatican, then they've given him a double and other things like this that are just crazy [ aberrantes ], crazy, crazy, no? Idiotic, completely idiotic, aren't they, and all of this is very smart on the part of the devil because this sways a certain amount of people, right, who are always saying: The Pope! The Pope! The Pope! No, no, no, don't speak to me about the Pope! Be obedient! Be obedient! I beg you, I beg you, it's his entourage, it's not him.

But I will say you can also look at the problem from another angle and say: good, ultimately I agree with you, it's not possible that the Pope who is protected by the Holy Ghost, by the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, could do things like this. There we agree, it's not possible, it doesn't fit, this destruction of the Church, this destruction of the Social Reign of Christ the King, this destruction of the Catholic faith in every aspect, every catechism, every university, every religious order, the seminaries, everywhere you look it is the systematic destruction of the Church, which was aimed at by all of these reforms that the Vatican implemented, because Vatican II wasn't, I'd say, what allowed these reforms to be put into effect, what had to be done was to implement the reforms of Vatican II in an equivocal way, this allowed them to start putting the reforms into practice and this was the goal, it [ Vatican II I believe ] was the springboard that permitted all this, so it can be said that the Holy Father, in effect, that it's not possible that a Pope could do all this, therefore he's not Pope.

This reasoning is worth, this reasoning, I don't know, I don't say that's what's going on and there are several scenarios, maybe this one has some merit, we'll know the truth later maybe, I don't know, I don't know. The way I see it, it's not clear yet, you understand, but one day if it came to light that it was true, and this is something that is far from impossible, here also, there are apparitions that say the same thing and these apparitions have been recognized by the See of Peter, Fatima, La Salette, that say that the devil will climb to the highest places in the Church, I don't know if by the "highest place in the Church" that means Secretary of State, and then stops there, or if it goes even farther, if it goes all the way to the Pope. I don't know maybe even to someone who says he's the Pope, I don't know, but you know this is something that isn't impossible and theologians have studied this problem, the theologians have studied this problem to see if it's something that can happen, if a Pope can perhaps be a heretic and as a result excommunicated from the Church and therefore all his acts become illegitimate and invalid. And if, just as a hypothesis, once again I just don't know, don't put words in my mouth, I don't know, but if at last it comes out that quietly that there are certain connections to Masonry, imagine that the Pope was registered in a Masonic lodge before his election, he would be excommunicated. Excommunicated... His election is invalid, he can't be Pope and we would have had for all this time... A Pope who wasn't Pope. This is possible. Once again I don't say this is what is really happening but what do you want in a situation like this, we're looking for a solution. We find ourselves with a problem that has almost no theological solution, theologically, I say theologically almost impossible to solve, so we search for a solution, fine! A solution that he is a prisoner, drugged, this is possible. I admit that when you see him move around and talk, personally I haven't seen him for two years, I haven't seen him in the flesh, I mean privately but with a public audience, I saw him put aside his paper and his script, speaking with a skill, a fluidity, getting to the point, with intelligence but in full possession of his faculties, in full possession of his faculties, not a man who had been drugged, or who has been given a shot or who... Not at all! The farthest thing from it!

Well then, when he blessed the Pentecostals, was there a revolver pointed at his head? When he kissed the feet of the Orthodox [ priest? I don't remember this occasion ]... No, this is absurd, it's not possible. Besides Mgr. Benelli said to me three weeks ago, when I saw him, Mgr. Benelli said to me: 'It's the Pope who wrote you those letters, you don't want to believe it but it's the Pope who wrote them to you, he is fully up to date, he is up to date about everything, he knows very well what he's doing and he's the one who wants all this happen and he makes the decisions and when I leave, when this conversation we're having is over and I leave, I am going to see the Pope every day, and I am immediately going to tell him what was said in this conversation.


Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:18 am
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
There was a sermon of Archbishop Lefebvre at the ordinations of priests in which the Archbishop stated that the sedevacantist theory is indeed possible. Mr. Lane has quoted it in the past, I believe. I know the sermon was printed in the Angelus magazine, though I don't have the reference (it would be interesting to see whether or not the SSPX has deleted that sermon from its website).

I have shown that other sermon to a "rabid anti-sede" and rabid SSPX supporter whom I know. His response was two-fold:

First, he accepted the authenticity of the sermon and then noted that Archbishop Lefebvre ultimately made the right decision and rejected sedevacantism.

Second, no matter what argument anyone presents, his only real retort is: "fromwhere do these folks draw their authority?" and "Private judgements are protestant." N.B. I copied these directly from his last email to me dated 28 February 2012. He was replying to my response to him concerning the latest "Eleison Comments" by Mgr. Williamson in which Bishop Williamson begins a series in which he seems to be demonstrating that heretics are not members of the Church, Ratzinger is a heretic, but he remains a pope in good standing nonetheless. He tells me he reads the arguments for sedevacantism but rests his refusal to even consider the subject because only Benedict 16 has the "authority" to excommunciate himself and any other belief is private judgment.

In my experience, rabid anti-sedes positively hate anything that destroys their fantasyland idea that anyone who does not recognize the validity and authority of their figurehead pope is already damned. I say, "figurehead", because that's all he is to my acquaintance. His real pope is the SSPX. I've pointed out his own contradiction concerning "private judgment" since he makes private judgments to follow the SSPX rather than the pope every day. He rejects the magisterial teaching [sic.] of his pope every day. He rejects the authority of his pope every time he attends a Mass offered by an SSPX priest. Yet he has Bishop Fellay as his "authority" so he's not making a "private judgment".

The absurdity of his thinking will not change even seeing that Archbishop Lefebvre accepted sedevacantism as a very real possibility. I admit, I have not had many discussions with anti-sedevacantists, but that is because the other anti-sedevacantists I know won't talk to me anymore.


Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:20 pm
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
Quote:
In my experience, rabid anti-sedes positively hate anything that destroys their fantasyland idea that anyone who does not recognize the validity and authority of their figurehead pope is already damned. I say, "figurehead", because that's all he is to my acquaintance. His real pope is the SSPX. I've pointed out his own contradiction concerning "private judgment" since he makes private judgments to follow the SSPX rather than the pope every day. He rejects the magisterial teaching [sic.] of his pope every day. He rejects the authority of his pope every time he attends a Mass offered by an SSPX priest. Yet he has Bishop Fellay as his "authority" so he's not making a "private judgment".


This has been my experience as well. As time is going on, it is getting worse.


Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:43 pm
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
Sometimes I think that Archbishop Lefebvre spoke like this to test the SSPX waters...the reaction of the pewsitters to the possibility.


Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:48 pm
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
TKGS wrote:
In my experience, rabid anti-sedes positively hate anything that destroys


...or even calls into question...

TKGS wrote:
their fantasy-land idea that anyone who does not recognize the validity and authority of their figurehead pope is already damned.


Almost all of what you say above can be equally applied to them, and to many sedevacantists, when they are presented with the sede-impeditist position.

At least here we respect one anothers' opinions, thank God. This is the only place I know of where this is true.

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Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:49 pm
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
Perhaps it is just because of where I live, but the only sedevacantists I know of who bristle at the thought that other ideas damn Catholics to hell are on the internet (e.g., the Dimond Brothers, or maybe Fr. Cekeda; he seems to vacillate on occasion, so I'm not sure where he stands).

The sedevacantists I know (which number exceedingly few) are just interested in the truth and will gladly accept a well-reasoned explaination of the present crisis that omits sedevacantism should one be offered. We also note that the identity of the pope at any given time is not an article of faith and that those who consider Benedict 16 to be the pope live in contradiction but, if they continue to retain the Catholic Faith, they are Catholics.

On the other hand, almost all of the other traditional Catholics I know are anti-sedevacantist and, since the SSPX moved into town, many I knew before have become rabidly so.


Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:30 pm
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
Philip,

Could you please provide the source of the French, and the text also if possible?

TKGS, here's the conference you are thinking of: (scanned images) http://strobertbellarmine.net/angeluslefebvre.html
And OCR'd text: http://strobertbellarmine.net/lefebvresede.html

The Archbishop also had this same conference published in the French SSPX mag, Fideliter.

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Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:45 pm
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
John Lane wrote:
Philip,

Could you please provide the source of the French, and the text also if possible?


Dear Mr. Lane,
A friend of mine on another Catholic forum did the translation for me. I know he found the French text online, but I don't know where.


Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:32 am
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
Sorry, the source of the French is right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raHuppuqG_k

I forgot to include it.


Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:36 am
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
Well that's good, thanks Philip. However it would be even better if we knew the location and date of the sermon. Could you ask your friend please?

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Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:59 am
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
Sure, Mr. Lane. I'll ask him. I would guess sometime in 1976, because the Archbishop references 13 years, and 13 years of Paul VI would be 1976.


Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:06 am
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
TKGS wrote:
Perhaps it is just because of where I live, but the only sedevacantists I know of who bristle at the thought that other ideas damn Catholics to hell are on the internet (e.g., the Dimond Brothers, or maybe Fr. Cekeda; he seems to vacillate on occasion, so I'm not sure where he stands).


Yes. My wife is studying a somewhat-recent book by Fr. Cekada. I cautioned her (not that she needs it) that although his data is usually quite valuable and correct, the conclusions to which he arrives from that data are not always accurate or complete. Nonetheless, I think he has done a lot of good for Catholicism.

TKGS wrote:
The sedevacantists I know (which number exceedingly few) are just interested in the truth and will gladly accept a well-reasoned explaination of the present crisis that omits sedevacantism should one be offered.


The very-small group to which we belong all believe the same as you, thank God.

TKGS wrote:
We also note that the identity of the pope at any given time is not an article of faith and that those who consider Benedict 16 to be the pope live in contradiction but, if they continue to retain the Catholic Faith, they are Catholics.


Perhaps, on an individual basis, yes. But I believe such a stance is based on ignorance. How much of this ignorance is culpable is not something I can judge, but it is really inexplicable to me. I really cannot understand it at all.

TKGS wrote:
On the other hand, almost all of the other traditional Catholics I know are anti-sedevacantist and, since the SSPX moved into town, many I knew before have become rabidly so.


Well, many in the SSPX seem to believe it IS the Catholic Church. To me, this is arrogance, and this leads to intransigence. Perhaps they now feel "safe" and don't want to disturb that feeling of safety. After all, the present condition of the Church and what lead up to it is very literally heartbreaking to anyone who loves God, or wants to.

As I have mentioned before, it is like watching a gang of thugs beat your Mother to death and being forced to stand by and watch, unable to intervene in any way.

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Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:27 pm
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
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Well, many in the SSPX seem to believe it IS the Catholic Church. To me, this is arrogance, and this leads to intransigence. Perhaps they now feel "safe" and don't want to disturb that feeling of safety.


For many years, we attended Mass at an SSPX chapel. The attitude you describe was not prevalent back then; however, it is now and has developed over the past twelve years. I have an opinion as to why this happened - but I will keep it to myself. :wink:


Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:15 pm
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
The text of the sermon can be found here:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... sB6A&pli=1

From what that document says, the date is February 1976. The sermon in question can be found in the middle of page seven, beginning with "Alors, vous me direz" and ending on page eight with the paragraph about communist China.


Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:18 am
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
Lorraine wrote:
Quote:
Well, many in the SSPX seem to believe it IS the Catholic Church. To me, this is arrogance, and this leads to intransigence. Perhaps they now feel "safe" and don't want to disturb that feeling of safety.


For many years, we attended Mass at an SSPX chapel. The attitude you describe was not prevalent back then; however, it is now and has developed over the past twelve years. I have an opinion as to why this happened - but I will keep it to myself. :wink:


I don't know how this attitude amongst the laity developed, but I have my suspicions.

One of the chapels I attend has been with the SSPX now for a little over one year. The chapel board, for some reason, seemed to believe that the only possible way the chapel could continue was to invite the SSPX to take over the chapel. During this past year it seems to me that the SSPX priests who come to the chapel are very congenial with people in general and the people like the priests. On the other hand, the priests rule the chapel totally and completely. They do no want to hear discussion about any aspect of chapel administration and their commands are to be carried out without question and without delay. Those on the chapel board who actually have to carry out the commands of the priests are less enthusiastic about the Society but seemed to think that there was no where else to go.

I also attended a conference in Kansas City, Missouri two years ago in which Bishop Fellay was the principle speaker. In his talk, I was amazed to hear how frankly he spoke of heresy--even using the word--in the Vatican, though he would never name names except in reference to Benedict 16. He even noted that Benedict 16, and John Paul 2 before him, were guilty of heretical teachings in one matter or another. After thoroughly describing the problem of heresy in the vatican, he then spent about 20 minutes to condemn sedevacantists as being like passengers on an airplane that has no pilot and is destined to crash and burn. My thought was that, at least, the "sedevacantist plane" is on "auto-pilot" and is keeping on course and at altitude while the Conciliar plane is being driven by its "pilot" straight into the ground. However, the crowd gave Bishop Fellay great accolades for his denunciations of sedevacantism.

Though I don't know, I think that it is this attitude by the leadership of the SSPX and the absolute control over its chapels that the SSPX exercises that has developed such attitudes amongst the laity who attend their chapels. And, frankly, I think the attitude has been cultivated. Whether or not this will ultimately be a benefit for the Society or a detriment is yet to be determined. I just wonder how the SSPX will react when (not if, in my opinion) the Vatican gives its approval (i.e., the approval of the Conciliar pope) to the ordination of women. I think that Bishop Fellay may be laying a trap for the Society from which he (or his successor) will be unable to escape.


Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:47 pm
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
TKGS wrote:
I also attended a conference in Kansas City, Missouri two years ago in which Bishop Fellay was the principle speaker. In his talk, I was amazed to hear how frankly he spoke of heresy--even using the word--in the Vatican, though he would never name names except in reference to Benedict 16. He even noted that Benedict 16, and John Paul 2 before him, were guilty of heretical teachings in one matter or another. After thoroughly describing the problem of heresy in the vatican, he then spent about 20 minutes to condemn sedevacantists as being like passengers on an airplane that has no pilot and is destined to crash and burn. My thought was that, at least, the "sedevacantist plane" is on "auto-pilot" and is keeping on course and at altitude while the Conciliar plane is being driven by its "pilot" straight into the ground. However, the crowd gave Bishop Fellay great accolades for his denunciations of sedevacantism.


Well...this is extremely interesting, and I had suspected as much.

In my opinion, the "pilot" for the sedevacantist and sede-impeditist "plane" is the Church Herself and the infallible teachings of Her Popes and Councils which precede the present-day anti-popes and anti-Church.

Fellay's explanation is flawed, and appears to me to be another proof that the SSPX (or at least many in it) views itself as BEING "the Church".

Sorry. That has never "washed" with me. Furthermore, in my less-than-expert opinion, it is anti-doctrinal.

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:12 pm
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
Can someone fix the margins? They appear to have gone awry. :D

At or about the year 1999, I was told by an SSPX priest that there was heresy in John Paul II's first encyclical. He told me this in response to my question as to whether he thought JPII was a heretic or not.

All I know is that the SSPX faithful have been taught in a subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) manner to have nothing but disdain for sedevacantists - the same way that many in the Conciliar Church have been taught to disdain traditionals in general and the sedevacantists in particular.


Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:30 pm
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
This, from Fr. Cekada yesterday on Fisheaters:

FatherCekada wrote:

Bishop Dolan, by the way, just returned from France, where he visited with one of the original French traditionalist priests, Père Avrille. In addition to regaling Bp. Dolan with stories about Bugnini (Père Avrille had been in the same seminary), he dropped an interesting nugget about Abp. Lefebvre.

Père Avrille related that he and the Abbé Coache (another proto-trad priest) had been having dinner with Abp. Lefebvre one and discussing the "pope question." At one point Abp. L. leaned over and told the both of them, "Practically speaking, I am a sedevacantist."

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Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:00 am
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
John Lane wrote:
This, from Fr. Cekada yesterday on Fisheaters:

FatherCekada wrote:

Bishop Dolan, by the way, just returned from France, where he visited with one of the original French traditionalist priests, Père Avrille. In addition to regaling Bp. Dolan with stories about Bugnini (Père Avrille had been in the same seminary), he dropped an interesting nugget about Abp. Lefebvre.

Père Avrille related that he and the Abbé Coache (another proto-trad priest) had been having dinner with Abp. Lefebvre one and discussing the "pope question." At one point Abp. L. leaned over and told the both of them, "Practically speaking, I am a sedevacantist."


They both have a way of using Archbishop Lefebvre when expedient. Here's what Bp. Dolan is saying after his trip to France:

Bp. Dolan, SGG Bulletin wrote:
Speaking of Bishops, I thought I would publish one of Bishop Williamson’s weekly columns. They say he is grieved and rather quiet these days, harboring no hopes for his Pius X Society. Bishop Fellay, after a brief break, will resume his work to bring the Society into “full communion” with the Conciliar church, one more side chapel in the one-world church of all religions. They are in a hurry to seal the deal before Ratzinger dies, as the discounted sale price for their treason will not be offered indefinitely.

I was told in France as well that everyone is talking about sedevacantism these days. They realize that the “R&R” (recognize and resist) position is not longer tenable, either practically or theologically, and that either one must embrace the new religion of Ratzinger or….. Sedevacantism (gulp!), i.e. the only logical Catholic position. In the meanwhile, let us continue to practice our unchanged Faith with great firmness, and fond charity for all of our fellow Catholics and former brethren. Each day let us lay down the heavy burden of judging our neighbor, and help him heft his own heavy cross with our charitable assistance, especially in prayer. We may yet all meet and embrace at Calvary.


Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:22 pm
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New post Re: Archbishop Lefebvre & Sedevacantism
Bishop Dolan wrote:
Bishop Fellay, after a brief break, will resume his work to bring the Society into “full communion” with the Conciliar church, one more side chapel in the one-world church of all religions. They are in a hurry to seal the deal before Ratzinger dies, as the discounted sale price for their treason will not be offered indefinitely. ... In the meanwhile, let us continue to practice our unchanged Faith with great firmness, and fond charity for all of our fellow Catholics and former brethren. Each day let us lay down the heavy burden of judging our neighbor, and help him heft his own heavy cross with our charitable assistance, especially in prayer. We may yet all meet and embrace at Calvary.


They've been predicting this "treason" by other Catholics for almost thirty years. Summarising the above, then:

"Those SSPX men are going to commit treason; they desire to commit treason, they are working on committing treason, and they will indeed commit it soon, because they recognise that the current remuneration for treason is good. Let us continue to be charitable about them even though they have such wicked hearts, and whatever we do, let us not judge them!"

Heroic virtue!

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Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:16 am
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