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 SSPX Tip: "French TLM Facing the People" 
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Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:44 am
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New post SSPX Tip: "French TLM Facing the People"
SSPX sent a DVD to Novus Ordo clergy in France to show them how to celebrate the traditional Latin Mass, together with a cover letter from the director of the project, Father de la Rocque, that included the following bit of advice:

“Indeed it is important to be aware that, although this DVD proposes learning it in Latin, the Tridentine Mass may likewise be celebrated in the vernacular. In 1965 an edition of the Roman Missal also offered a French translation. Likewise, the ritus servandus [rubrics] introducing the 1962 edition provided for Mass facing the people if necessary. If Benedict XVI frees this rite, it would then seem possible to introduce it gradually in the parishes without suddenly upsetting the habits of your parishioners.”

A vernacular “traditional” Mass celebrated facing the people by non-priests —brought to you thanks to SSPX!


Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:42 pm
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New post Re: SSPX Tip: "French TLM Facing the People"
sacerdos wrote:
A vernacular “traditional” Mass celebrated facing the people by non-priests

Crazy.

sacerdos wrote:
—brought to you thanks to SSPX!

Sad.

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Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:45 pm
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New post TLM facing the People
Could anyone give me the source of :
Sacerdos wrote:

"Indeed it is important to be aware that, although this DVD proposes learning it in Latin, the Tridentine Mass may likewise be celebrated in the vernacular. In 1965 an edition of the Roman Missal also offered a French translation. Likewise, the ritus servandus [rubrics] introducing the 1962 edition provided for Mass facing the people if necessary. If Benedict XVI frees this rite, it would then seem possible to introduce it gradually in the parishes without suddenly upsetting the habits of your parishioners.” ?

Thank you.

This gives me very grave concern especially in view of the above quotation; last week the SSPX intoduced the "Dialogue Mass" during the Secondary School Mass. This has never occurred before in the 20year (approx) history of SSPX.

Does anyone have any information regarding the events surrounding the dialogue Mass, and any concerns as to where it is leading to.

Thanks
Yours in the Good Fight,
Phil


Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:28 pm
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sacerdos will have to provide his source, though I have read similar reports on two or three news sites on the internet. It really shouldn't be too difficult to find one these reports. But his comment does give me cause to raise a question:

What is the opinion of members of this forum concerning the validity of the New Rite of Episcopal Consecrations?

Why did you come to this conclusion if you have an opinion on the matter?



By the way, one source of this report concerning the vernacular traditional Mass can be found at: Novus Ordo Watch


Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:25 am
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New post Dialogue Mass
Dear Phillip,

The dialogue Mass is not an innovation of the Society of St. Pius X. It was authorized by the Holy See in 1922 and again in 1935. The innovation seems to be encouraging priests to say Mass in the vernacular if this report mentioned by Sacerdos is accurate.

Yours in JMJ,

Mike


Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:31 am
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A photocopy of the original letter can be found at:

http://www.phpbbserver.com/phpbb/viewto ... reforumcat

The passage translated above is the one in the original with the red line next to it.


Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:12 pm
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New post Reply to Sacerdos
Thank you for this information. It is just what I wanted.

If anyone has anymore information on the 'Dialogue Mass' it will be appreciated.

Yours in the Good Fight,
Phil


Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:05 am
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New post SSPX Tip: French Mass Facing the People
I hadn't heard that it was authorized in 1922 or 1935. I read, but I can't remember which encyclical of Pope Pius XII, where he mentioned that a Dialogue Mass could be used. Was it the document about sacred music? I will have to check my encyclicals to be sure. Could you state what document authorized the Dialogue Mass in 1922 or 1935? Just curious. I was told it was an option, and could have been the "product" of Bugnini's influence. Basically it was an "introduction" for peoples' participation in the Mass - where, previously, only the server was responding to the priest during Mass.

Pat Beck


Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:29 am

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New post New Rite of Episcopal Consecration
TKGS wrote:
What is the opinion of members of this forum concerning the validity of the New Rite of Episcopal Consecrations?

If you mean that which Paul VI "promulgated" in 1968, I consider them invalid.

TKGS wrote:
Why did you come to this conclusion if you have an opinion on the matter?

From a discussion of the details of the actual ceremony I have read which were published on at least two places on the web, plus from a pamphlet which discussed them.

I will have to dig out the references to them for you, although I believe one was from something that Pat Omlor wrote, and a second one may have been from Fr. Cekada's site.

I have also read a rather long treatise on the subject of the New Rite of Ordination written by Mr. John Daly that pretty much convinces me that that rite is also most probably invalid.

Fr. Carl Pulvermacher is reported to have stated repeatedly that the Novus Ordo would allow the Tridentine Mass when there were no more valid priests to offer it.

Some have made the point that Joey the Rat can't possibly be the real Bishop of Rome because he was "consecrated" under that New (invalid) Rite of Consecration, and is, therefore, no more a bishop than I am.

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Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:18 am
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Mr. Gordon,

I have read the paper by Father Cekada. If you can locate the reference by Pat Omlor I would appreciate it. I've heard the name "Omlor" but really don't know who he is. Father Cekada's note that shows Archbishop Lefebvre obviously believed that the New Rite was invalid until he had been convinced otherwise by Father Schmidberger that the New Rite is an "Eastern Rite" is troubling. Here is why I have a problem with all this:

Years ago I observed that "conservative" critics would explain objections in very simple and straightforward ways while "liberal" apologists had to go justify their positions through many very complicated "proofs". When I learned about Tradition, I discovered the same relationship between "traditionalists" and "conservatives". The "traditionalist" critics explained their objections (the first one I read about concerned the "Luminous Mysteries") in very simply and straightforward ways while the "conservative" apologists simply accepted (or ignored) everything that came out of the Vatican and never really responded to the "traditionalist" objections or gave very convoluted answers. In this case of examining the validity of the New Rite of Episcopal Ordinations, I read Father Cekeda and understand his arguments--they are clear, concise, and compelling--while the apologists for the New Rite make their case in highly complicated language that completely baffles me. I am struck by the fact that I can follow an argument made by Saint Thomas in his Summa but cannot follow the argument that purports to prove the New Rite valid.




Mr. Daly, is your "rather longer treatise on the subject" available online? I have read, I think, all of the articles on this website but don't think I've seen this.


Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:13 pm
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New post Re: SSPX Tip: French Mass Facing the People
Pat Beck wrote:
I hadn't heard that it was authorized in 1922 or 1935. I read, but I can't remember which encyclical of Pope Pius XII, where he mentioned that a Dialogue Mass could be used. Was it the document about sacred music? I will have to check my encyclicals to be sure. Could you state what document authorized the Dialogue Mass in 1922 or 1935? Just curious. I was told it was an option, and could have been the "product" of Bugnini's influence. Basically it was an "introduction" for peoples' participation in the Mass - where, previously, only the server was responding to the priest during Mass.

Pat Beck


Dear Pat,

Regarding your point about Bugnini or whether he influenced the Sacred Congregation of Rites to make this decision, I am not sure. My only point to Phillip, was that the SSPX did not come up with the "Dialogue Mass." I have not researched this more than having read the replies of the S.C. of Rites.

I was going from memory, so I am happy that you had me look it up. There are five replies given by the Sacred Congregation of Rites on this issue. (S.C. Rit., 18 Feb.,1921; 25 Feb., 1921; 27 Apr., 1921, 4 Aug., 1922; 30 Nov., 1935) Private.

The first four of the replies state that in essense that while it is licit for the prayers to be said by the faithful, it is not expedient. I realize that I had mentioned the 1922 reply as one allowing the "dialogue" Mass, but that was my mistake, as it is only the 1935 reply which allowed this.

I will present to you the rescript for 1935 given by the S.C. of Rites:

Rescript of 30 Nov., 1935, to the Cardinal Archbishop of Genoa:
Questions
1. In seminaries, religious Congregations, and in some parishes a practice has become established whereby the people together with the server make the responses in private Masses, provided that no confusion is occasioned. It is asked whether this practice may be sustained, and even propagated.
2. In some places, in private Masses, the people recite aloud and in unison, together with the priest, the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus, and Agnus Dei. The promoters of this practice give this reason: a private Mass is an abbreviated Missa decantata. Now, in the Missa decantata, the people sing the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus, and Agnus Dei. Therefore, this can be done by way of recital also in private Masses. It is asked whether the practice and the reason assigned for it can be sustained.

Reply. This Sacred Congregation, having heard also the opinion of the Liturgical Commission, replies that, in accordance with decree n. 4375, it is for the Ordinary to decide whether, in individual cases, in view of all the circumstances, namely, the place, the people, the number of Masses which are being said at the same time, the proposed practice, though in itself praiseworthy, in fact causes disturbance rather than furthers devotion. This can easily happen in the case of the practice mentioned in the second question, even without passing on the reason assigned, namely, that a private Mass in an abbreviated Missa decantata.
According to the above standard, Your Eminence has the full right to control this form of liturgical piety according to your prudent discretion.

(Bouscaran, The Canon Law Digest, Officially Published Documents Affecting the Code of Canon Law, 1933-1942, pgs. 198-200).


Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:39 pm
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New post Dr. Patrick Omlor
TKGS wrote:
I've heard the name "Omlor" but really don't know who he is.

Dr. Patrick Omlor is an Australian who is rather well-known to Mr. John Lane, and is a very respected author of books and articles concerning various problems that effect us today.

He wrote possibly the first book on the subject of the invalidity of the consecration of the wine in the vernacular Novus Ordo, entitled, "Questioning the Validity of the Masses Using the New, All-English Canon".

His writings are alway clear and reasoned, and are well worth reading.

We have recently been loaned a copy of a collection of his writings and essays, published under the title, "The Robber Church", although I have not been able to get it away from my dear Wife long enough to do much more than scan it. :D

I think it was in this book that I recently read his take on the Episcopal Consecration issue.

Your comments on the convoluted ways that the "conservatives" attempt to justify the "irregularities" of the present illegitimate holders of the Holy See are completely correct.

I especially enjoyed your comment about being able to understand St. Thomas but not them!

Well done!

Also, as far as I know, Mr. Daly has not published the article I mentioned to the web. He very graciously sent it to me attached to an e-mail at my request.

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Kenneth G. Gordon CinC
Moscow, Idaho
U.S.A.


Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:49 pm
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New post SSPX Tip: French TLM Facing the People
Mike: Thanks for your response to my inquiry. Very interesting.

Pat Beck


Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:43 am

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New post Re: Dr. Patrick Omlor
KenGordon wrote:
We have recently been loaned a copy of a collection of [Omlor's] writings and essays, published under the title, "The Robber Church"...


Now I remember where I've seen the name. I purchased a copy of The Robber Church from the CMRI press at the same time I purchased Tumultuous Times. The book is now sitting on my bookshelf and I intended to read it as soon as I finish Tumultuous. I can't wait to read it--but I will have to. I can't read too many books at the same time. I get confused.


Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:47 pm
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New post Reply to TKGS
TKGS wrote:
I can't read too many books at the same time. I get confused.


Don't feel like the Alone Stranger :)

I think a lot of us have that problem. I have to let many of the things I read "digest" in my mind before I am ready for anything new on a particular subject.

I especially find it difficult to read things that are half-truths or down-right lies, even when it is necessary to do so in order to really discover what "the enemy" is talking about.

Right now, my Wife and I (mostly my Wife) are working through Fr. Isaac Hecker's book, "The Church and The Age" which is simply FULL of, to our minds, heretical ideas! We cannot imagine why on earth the Bishops did not come down on this man with the full force of the Church's anathemas! It is truly amazing!

Along with this book we are reading another one written by a French priest entitled, "Fr. Hecker: Is He a Saint?", which not only was never translated into English at the time it was published, but which was blocked from either translation or publication in the U.S. by Cardinal Gibbons, because it puts forth, and proves, the case that not only was Fr. Hecker most definitely NOT a saint, but that his writings are full of serious theological errors!

Yet Fr. Hecker was the person who started the Paulist order!

Fr. Hecker in this book frankly admits that during his priestly training he missed most of his required theology courses...due to illness! Yet he managed to get to almost all of the others.

We are truly appalled! Believe me, friends, the rot in our Beloved Church's hierarchy goes back a LONG way! It is no wonder that God has allowed our Beloved Church to be so frightfully struck!

Seeing and understanding these things, we must get down on our knees and thank God for giving us the graces to still have the Faith!

One thing that in my humble opinion is different about most of the Traditional Catholics I know these days is that we are Catholics who love our Church despite these external things: we have no illusions, and thus, thank God, are stronger in our Faith.

_________________
Kenneth G. Gordon CinC
Moscow, Idaho
U.S.A.


Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:13 pm
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