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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:14 pm
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New post Help important question.
Well I just recently moved to Lubbock, Texas. I have asked about Bishop Vezelis and he is attempting to set up a parallel Church. For this reason he is an excommunicate, because unlike other priest's that are Epikea priest SSPX, and Sedevacantist priest this one definitely does his masses completely illicitly because of the reasons stated above. First of all attending the Novus Ordo is out of the question, and I know that in this Forum that is not a problem with anyone here. Just making things clear.

I have read pretty much the entire forum, and things are so far a little more clear but not enough to be able to under conscience to be able to attend the mass in Lubbock. Please if any of you have any proof that it would be okay considering my circumstances, college student, with not much money, and also lots of studies to complete. Also secondly, if it would be licit for me to just attend the mass would it also be licit for me to receive Holy Communion? Not sure if the distinction is too specific, but I think it is a valid point.

So my question is under the 1917 Code, would be it be licit for me to attend his mass since there are no other minister's around. Now I know the priest that are there are validly ordained (thuc line), and I know it is not an easy thing to seek sacrament's from an excommunicate (not formally, but ipso facto considering the statements that Vezelis is saying that pretty much outside of his little ordinary jurisdiction there is no salvation sounds pretty clear to me) and it could cause grave scandal. However, the greater good which is the salvation of my soul is at stake! Now I know Holy Mother Church attempts to be merciful to us and attempt to give us the sacrament's as often as possible. The difference is unlike the Orthodox Church, they don't deny the truth's of the Catholic faith. So they are a different type of schismatic. So if I would attend the mass that they offer is it communicatio in sacris?

Considering the recent Code that Ken Gordon put in someone else's post.

"Canon 2261 with cross references to Canons 2264, 2275 and 2284.

Para.1) One excommunicated is prohibited from confecting and administering licitly the Sacraments and Sacramentals, except for the exceptions that follow:

Para.2) The faithful, with due regard for the prescription of paragraph 3 below, can for any just cause seek the Sacraments and Sacramentals from one excommunicated, especially if other ministers are lacking, and then the one who is excommunicate and approached can administer these and is under no obligation of inquiring the reasons from the one requesting.

Para.3) But from a banned excommunicate and from others excommunicated after a condemnatory or declaratory sentence has come, only the faithful in danger of death can ask for sacramental absolution according to the norm of Canons 882 and 2252 and even, if other ministers are lacking, other Sacraments and Sacramentals."

Please if there is some commentary or something that would elucidate it would be a great help. I do want to be able to with conscience attend the mass. For if the Church truly does not allow in my case I am willing to sit this one out. I have been attending Traditional Latin Mass for over 15 year's (I was not brought up in the Novus Ordo so this is foreign to me Deo Gratias) and only missed a couple of Sunday's. So unlike many other traditionalist, I am not accustomed to sitting at home and not being at mass (especially in certain regions or countries where they truly don't have anywhere to go). It definitely will feel very different now that I am over here in Lubbock and I definitely want to know if it is a valid possibility for me. Thank you for the patience and responses of everyone, this is a true concern for me. I appreciate all the help thanks so much.
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Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:30 pm
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New post Re: Help important question.
Dear Jorge,

I wish there was an easy answer.

Do you really have to study in that specific place? I guess you believe you must, or you'd have chosen another college.

I really don't know whether those men are Catholics. I don't have enough data to form a judgement. On the hypothesis that they are not, I wouldn't assist at the Masses. Not because I think it certainly unlawful, although I think it arguably is, but because the notion is repulsive for several reasons.

In terms of lawfulness, there is a distinction between the Mass and the Sacraments offered by non-Catholics. Both involve communicatio in sacris cum acatholicus, that is, both are divine worship in common. But the Code doesn't mention Holy Mass, it mentions sacraments and sacramentals. I cannot explain the distinction, but it is a fact. It may be that both are lawful (it is difficult to see on what grounds Holy Mass would be forbidden) but the Church is only prepared to authorise specifically the reception of sacraments.

If they are non-Catholics, then the issue of law turns upon scandal and danger of perversion. Scandal I think is not an issue in the utter confusion of these circumstances, but the danger that one will be led by personal affection, or other causes arising from familiarity with these people, to an erroneous view of the Church (especially her unity) is very real. And it might be prudent for a sixty-year-old who has practiced regularly all his life to assist at such Masses, but not for a young man. I make this point merely to illustrate the difficulty in forming a practical judgement which would apply to another.

The sacrament of Penance, even weekly, would be a different matter. The danger of perversion would be immeasurably less.

As I said, I wish there were an easy answer, but I don't think there is a universally applicable one.

In Christ our King.

Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:16 am
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Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:35 pm
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Location: U.S.A.
New post Re: Help important question.
I don't have an answer for you. When I was at TTU and attended that chapel, I had no idea who Bp. Vizelis was - and he was almost never mentioned. I just went to Mass and went home. Back in the 90s there were about 15 regular attendees and Mass was once a month. It's different now though.

AND I believe, not sure though, that you have to sign something that says you recognize Bp. Vizelis as the sole true bishop in North America. That's what I heard but can't confirm. If that's the case, I would stay away for sure.

I think there is still an old priest who offers the Mass in Midland but that would be a bit of a drive.

Too bad that the chapel in Lubbock has become what it is. Lubbock is a great town - safe, enjoyable, etc. I wish you the best at TTU.

Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:04 am
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New post Re: Help important question.
I agree very much with John's assessment. The added information provided by Larie would make me even more reluctant to attend.

As an example from our experiences, a long time ago, we were "between priests" and met with Fr. Lucien Pulvermacher to see if perhaps we might be able to use his services. He insisted that we agree to never attend the services offered by any other priest, ever, in order to receive the Sacraments from him. He viewed our part in receiving the Sacraments from any other priest as involving him in "communicatio in sacris cum haereticis". We, of course, could never agree to such a thing. Therefore, he refused us Communion, although we did stay for his Mass that day. Two of our children who were with us, not understanding, started crying. Shortly thereafter, Fr. Lucien became "Pope Pius XIII".

At this point, I would avoid having anything to do with Vizelias (sp?) and his group.

I just looked at a map of Texas and see that Lubbock is a LONG ways north of Houston, Texas, where two most excellent priests offer daily Mass.

So, with a view to perhaps arriving at a solution for you, please tell us what you are studying in Lubbock. Perhaps it might be a good thing for your spiritual life to transfer to Rice, nearer Houston.

Also, to clarify my other post, in which I quoted Canon 2261 and related, let me make clear that in addition to answering a question in that particular thread, I was also trying to prove the downright foolishness of the "home alone" position.

The "home aloners", for the most part, judge every priest who has ever participated in the Novus Ordo "mass" as being thereby an apostate and excommunicate, and therefore for them to attend such a priest's Masses after he has gone back to offering only the Traditional Mass is the same as "communcatio in sacris..." and is forbidden to them.

This is a preposterous position. Every single priest I know of who has been in that position was simply mistaken. As even Hutton Gibson remarked on a video tape we have here, "...the devil used our virtue of obedience against us...". And in any case, how dare any layman make the judgement of excommunication against anyone?

Canon 2261 proves that even if the "home aloners" are correct (which I categorically deny!), they may still receive the Sacraments and Sacramentals from such a priest. Therefore they have no excuse for refusing the means to the graces they need.

YOUR case, is a bit different, however, and John's assessment is very valid.

One very good priest I know, who is in his 80s, obeyed his bishop's orders and said the Novus Ordo for a number of years, and absolutely hated every minute of it. Once he was convinced that he never had to do such, he broke down in tears of gratitude for this information, went back to the Traditional Mass, and his Masses are the most devout I have ever attended.

Another priest I know, who is in his late 70s' and fortunately, had an excellent rapport with his bishop, simply told his bishop that he would no longer say the Novus Ordo as it was slowly killing him emotionally, and his bishop, surprisingly, gave him permission to do what he thought was right.

So, on the basis of these good men obeying an unlawful order, we lay people are to "excommunicate" such priests? No. To me, to do so would be a cruel crime of injustice, and would show the height of arrogance.

Kenneth G. Gordon

Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:52 pm
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:14 pm
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New post Re: Help important question.
Thank you so much for your responses. Well my intent was not formally to excommunicate him (I don't have such authority by the way), but just to recognize a fact that has really happened. Which should be pretty clear to anyone who has read his stuff or listened to his sermons. Yes I hope I don't take away any authority, with the reason that I have been given I could form a judgment about something that has happened ipso facto especially when the case is so clear cut.

I am studying Petroleum Engineering, and there are only 2 other real Universities offering that degree plan in Texas. I don't really want to go outside of Texas since it is more expensive etc... The other two are Texas A&M and UT Austin. I would of gladly gone to UT Austin if it would of been possible for me, but do to several reasons plus it is not exactly the easiest school to get into. Yes, so it is necessary for me to study so that I can get work its been pretty bad. I have pretty much a BA in Philosophy, but that won't even get me a minimum wage job! In terms of the reason's they are pretty solid I really don't have much of another choice. I do want to study specifically this degree plan, I know I could study any other engineering and maybe even just do just as well but who knows. Please pray for me, again I am not accustomed not going to mass whatsoever this is completely new to me. If I missed mass on Sunday it was through my own fault and not because of anything else. Now its going to be due to necessity. What I might just end up doing is trying to find other Catholic's who hitch rides to other places. That might be the next best option, atleast go once a month or every two weeks. Since it is unusually far that I would have to drive, but yes thank you very much. If you find anything please let me know, God Bless.

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Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:37 pm
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