Bellarmine Forums

Validity or Invalidity of NO sacraments
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Author:  Teresa Ginardi [ Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Validity or Invalidity of NO sacraments

I was wondering about the validity or invalidity of the NO sacraments. Does anyone besides Holy Mother Church have the competence do judge these sacraments? I mean do we have competent, experienced sacramental theologians, whether cleric or layman, that can assess these sacraments properly? I, myself, avoid the NO and all their sacraments, not because I know anything about their validity (I don't), but just because it's a new church (in my mind, not the Catholic Church). But, could these sacraments possibly be valid? And, how do we judge?

Author:  C. Thomas J. M. Vick [ Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:16 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hi, Teresa.

Somehow, I've got it in my mind that "A doubtful Sacrament is not a Sacrament". Where that came from, I'm not sure. I will try to do some research, and see if I can post something authoritative.

lex orandi, lex credendi

Author:  abragers [ Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  "Timing" of the NO Sacraments

I have a side question regarding the NO sacraments and invaldity. IF, for example, one did determine that the NO Holy Orders are invalid or doubtful what was the "grace period" (for lack of a better term) for the Vatican machine to churn out and distribute the books containing the new rites? In "The Problems with the New Sacraments" (Coomaraswamy), quotes Michael Davies: "Pope Paul VI promulgated the new ordination rites for deacon, priest and bishop with his Apostolic Constitution Pontificalis Romani recognitio of 18 June 1968." Later, on page 37, Dr. Coomaraswamy discusses additional changes done after 1970, but states: "The provisional ICEL (English) translation used between June 1968 and June 1970..." The implication is that a provisional translation was available immediately in June of 1968. Was it really possible to roll out the new so quickly?

This may seem a small point so many decades later, but if one knows a priest who was ordained in early 1969 or if one was confirmed shortly after the Confirmation Rite was changed, etc.

Author:  xcordeeclesiae [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:28 am ]
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a priest ordained in the old rite prior to 1969 may have valid orders, but if he does not hold the catholic faith,then he is a non-catholic.

Author:  Linda [ Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:21 am ]
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Can you back up what you just stated about priests ordained before 1968? about their being non-Catholics?

Author:  Crazy Cat [ Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:03 am ]
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xcordeeclesiae wrote:
a priest ordained in the old rite prior to 1969 may have valid orders, but if he does not hold the catholic faith,then he is a non-catholic.

This is a true statement -- anyone who does not hold the Catholic Faith is not a Catholic. But I do pray for those priests that they may renounce their apostasy. They would still have their priestly powers, of course, but that's a separate issue from the novus ordo sacraments since their forms have all been changed.

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