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 DEI VERBUM 5. vs. DEI FILIUS c. 4 in JPII's ECCLESIA DEI 
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New post DEI VERBUM 5. vs. DEI FILIUS c. 4 in JPII's ECCLESIA DEI
When I first read John Paul II's motu proprio excommunicating Archbishop Lefebvre and the four bishops he consecrated, Ecclesia Dei, I was shocked when I read this passage (my emphasis and comments):
Quote:
4. The root of this schismatic act can be discerned in an incomplete and contradictory notion of Tradition. Incomplete, because it does not take sufficiently into account the living character of Tradition [indolem vivam eiusdem Traditionis], which, as the Second Vatican Council clearly [lit. "very clearly", clarissime] taught,
Quote:
comes from the Apostles [...] [and] develop[s ] [proficit] in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. For there is a growth [crescit] in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down. This happens through the contemplation and study made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts (see Luke, 2:19, 51 ["But Mary kept all these words, pondering them in her heart." and "And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them. And his mother kept all these words in her heart."]) through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities which they experience [experiuntur], and through the preaching of those who have received through Episcopal succession the sure gift of truth.
[I use the English translation of Dei Verbum 8. itself instead of the English translation of it in Ecclesia Dei. John Paul II ends his quote on the penultimate sentence of the paragraph from Dei Verbum, the last sentence being: "For as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her.", as though Revelation did not end with the death of the last Apostle.].(5)


Footnote 5 also cites Vatican Council I, Const. Dei Filius, cap. 4: DS 3020 on Faith & Reason, which flat out contradicts his quote of Dei Verbum, n. 8 on nearly every point.
Dei Filius, cap. 4: DS 3020 reads:
Quote:
For the doctrine of faith which God hath revealed has not been proposed, like a philosophical invention, to be perfected by human ingenuity, but has been delivered as a divine deposit to the Spouse of Christ, to be faithfully kept and infallibly declared. Hence, also, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is perpetually to be retained which our holy mother the Church has once declared; nor is that meaning ever to be departed from, under the pretense or pretext [specie et nomine] of a deeper comprehension of them. [So there cannot be a "living" and "developing" tradition in which there "is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down" because how can there be a growth in the understanding of something that is constantly in flux? Cf. this.] Let, then, the intelligence, science, and wisdom of each and all, of individuals and of the whole Church, in all ages and all times, increase and flourish in abundance and vigor; but simply in its own proper kind, that is to say, in one and the same doctrine, one and the same sense, one and the same judgment.


Against Dei Verbum, n. 8. is Pope St. Pius X's Pascendi 15.:
Quote:
15. But this doctrine of experience is also under another aspect entirely contrary to Catholic truth. It is extended and applied to tradition, as hitherto understood by the Church, and destroys it. By the Modernists, tradition is understood as a communication to others, through preaching by means of the intellectual formula, of an original experience. To this formula, in addition to its representative value, they attribute a species of suggestive efficacy which acts both in the person who believes, to stimulate the religious sentiment should it happen to have grown sluggish and to renew the experience once acquired, and in those who do not yet believe, to awake for the first time the religious sentiment in them and to produce the experience.


Wow, after realizing this, I have come to realize that the Society of St. Pius X is the last strong force against Modernism.

Here are my replies to a Fisheater's user:

Quote:
Just make sure you're clear that in Dei Filius it is rejecting departing from the meaning under the pretext of coming to a deeper understanding.
This is precisely the pretext that Dei Verbum sets when it says "this living tradition" "develops" and "grows" "in the Church" "until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her." The implication is that "the words of God [have not yet] reach[ed] their complete fulfillment in her" and that we need to, with our own human "contemplation and study," make them "reach their complete fulfillment" in the future.

Quote:
It is not rejecting coming to a deeper understanding while maintaining the same meaning--otherwise we'd be condemning all the great strides made by the scholastics, etc. over the centuries.
Even in those cases, the Faith is not better known than it was to the Apostles. "[T]he further off a thing is the less distinctly is it seen; wherefore those who were nigh to Christ's advent had a more distinct knowledge of the good things to be hoped for," and "those who were nearest to Christ, wherefore before, like John the Baptist, or after, like the apostles, had a fuller knowledge of the mysteries of faith." (Summa II-II q. 1 a. 7 ad 1 et 4, "Whether the articles of faith have increased in course of time?")

Quote:
St. Vincent de Lerins famous Commonitorium--one of the key patristic sources on the nature of Tradition--has a whole section on the cultivation and growth of Tradition from the seed planted by the Apostles.
Thanks for the reference; I'll have to check it out.

Quote:
The current Pope would argue that the developments of Vatican II fall within the acceptable parameters of authentic development, and are not being used as a pretext to change meaning (John Paul II would probably argue the same I would imagine.).
But what exactly is an "authentic development"? There is an enormous difference between what Dei Verbum says—"[T]here is a growth in the understanding [Whose understanding? The whole Church's or Her individual adherents'?] of the realities and the words which have been handed down"—and what it could have said—"[T]here [can be] a growth in [modern man's] understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down," such as by better catechesis.
Quote:
Objection 2. Further, development has taken place, in sciences devised by man, on account of the lack of knowledge in those who discovered them, as the Philosopher observes (Metaph. ii). Now the doctrine of faith was not devised by man, but was delivered to us by God, as stated in Ephesians 2:8: "It is the gift of God." Since then there can be no lack of knowledge in God, it seems that knowledge of matters of faith was perfect from the beginning and did not increase as time went on.

[...]

Reply to Objection 2. Progress in knowledge occurs in two ways. First, on the part of the teacher, be he one or many, who makes progress in knowledge as time goes on: and this is the kind of progress that takes place in sciences devised by man. Secondly, on the part of the learner; thus the master, who has perfect knowledge of the art, does not deliver it all at once to his disciple from the very outset, for he would not be able to take it all in, but he condescends to the disciple's capacity and instructs him little by little. It is in this way that men made progress in the knowledge of faith as time went on. Hence the Apostle (Galatians 3:24) compares the state of the Old Testament to childhood.

(St. Thomas Aquinas, I-II q. 1 a. 7, "Whether the articles of faith have increased in course of time?")


Quote:
The presumption of your argument is that the meaning has definitely changed--and that both sides accept that as a fact.
What certainly has changed is what is meant by Tradition, not necessarily what that Tradition is. Tradition is unfortunately not seen as something that "has been delivered [tradita, from where we get "Tradition" = "passed on"] as a divine deposit to the Spouse of Christ, to be faithfully kept and infallibly declared" but as something "to be perfected by human ingenuity" (Dei Filius) and "contemplation and study" (Dei Verbum).


Summary
There is a huge difference between a "developing Tradition" and a "developing understanding of the one, unchanging Tradition."

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Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:22 pm
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New post Re: DEI VERBUM 5. vs. DEI FILIUS c. 4 in JPII's ECCLESIA DEI
Yes, I think you're right, Alan.

There is some good material in Manning's "The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost" on this subject. That's a really important book, by the way.

Also, you will probably find this interesting (on Ratzinger's false philosophy): http://www.waragainstbeing.com/

(Larson seems pious and learned, but he does not permit criticism of his own thoughts - by me - with the same freedom that he criticises Ratzinger. :) )

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Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:13 am
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New post Re: DEI VERBUM 5. vs. DEI FILIUS c. 4 in JPII's ECCLESIA DEI
John Lane wrote:
There is some good material in Manning's "The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost" on this subject. That's a really important book, by the way.
Manning translated Dei Filius; it's got to be good. Thanks
I found it on Archive.org.
John Lane wrote:
Also, you will probably find this interesting (on Ratzinger's false philosophy): http://www.waragainstbeing.com/
How does it compare to Msgr. Tissier's Faith Imperiled by Reason: Benedict XVI's Hermeneutics or the Sí Sí No No article "They Think They've Won: Part VI" on Ratzinger?
John Lane wrote:
(Larson seems pious and learned, but he does not permit criticism of his own thoughts - by me - with the same freedom that he criticises Ratzinger. :) )
He doesn't support the SSPX nor the Sedes. Interesting

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e-Book: bit.ly/1iDkMAw

Modernism: modernism. us.to
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Last edited by Alan Aversa on Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:09 am
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New post Re: DEI VERBUM 5. vs. DEI FILIUS c. 4 in JPII's ECCLESIA DEI
John Lane wrote:
(Larson seems pious and learned, but he does not permit criticism of his own thoughts - by me - with the same freedom that he criticises Ratzinger. :) )


Then he is arrogant. If he wishes to save his soul, he had better learn some humility. :(

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Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:16 am
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New post Re: DEI VERBUM 5. vs. DEI FILIUS c. 4 in JPII's ECCLESIA DEI
Alan Aversa wrote:
How does it compare to Msgr. Tissier's Faith Imperiled by Reason: Benedict XVI's Hermeneutics


Well it's easier to read, clearer, although I am not sure Larson is as sound in philosophy as the bishop.


Alan Aversa wrote:
or the Sí Sí No No article "They Think They've Won: Part VI" on Ratzinger?

It's been too long since I read that for any comment to be cogent!



Alan Aversa wrote:
John Lane wrote:
(Larson seems pious and learned, but he does not permit criticism of his own thoughts - by me - with the same freedom that he criticises Ratzinger. :) )
He doesn't support the SSPX nor the Sedes. Interesting

No, he doesn't have a clue about what the Church is, and he is all confused on obedience - as if it is possible for a Catholic to obey or submit in any meaningful way, in religious matters, to a heretic. I corresponded with him and recommended that he read a de ecclesia, but he was merely insulted that anybody could suggest that he didn't know something important. Maybe the seed has been sown and he'll come around a little over time. Prayers.

Also, he write for Christian Order, which journal came up here recently. His position is that of Christian Order, as far as I can tell, which is a good reason not to bother with that periodical! :)

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Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:19 am
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New post Re: DEI VERBUM 5. vs. DEI FILIUS c. 4 in JPII's ECCLESIA DEI
John Lane wrote:
Also, he writes for Christian Order, which journal came up here recently. His position is that of Christian Order, as far as I can tell, which is a good reason not to bother with that periodical! :)


Agreed.

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New post Re: DEI VERBUM 5. vs. DEI FILIUS c. 4 in JPII's ECCLESIA DEI
Alan Aversa wrote:
Manning translated Dei Filius; it's got to be good.


Manning wrote Dei Filius. :)

OK, that isn't true, but he was the single most effective and committed man for the definition of papal infallibility and for the success of the Council, apart from Pius IX himself.

Manning's importance to the history of the Church, not just in England but universally, in the nineteenth century would be difficult to over-estimate. He was a giant. He knew everybody, and was, as far as it was in his power, on good terms with everybody. He was the student and friend of Perrone and Ballerini, and was at the death-bed of the Jesuit Father-General Beckx. Dr. Ward didn't publish a word that had not been passed by Manning. When The Tablet, which had been causing the Church difficulties, was said to be in some financial trouble, he purchased it and turned it into an organ of the Church in England. He visited Montalembert on his deathbed. He closed Wiseman's eyes in death. He was at the death-bed of Pius IX, who said to him, "Addio carrissimo."

When Wiseman died and Pius IX had to decide whom to nominate to the vacant see of Westminster, he ordered a month of public masses and prayers, and the Holy Father prayed himself particularly earnestly for light. He said afterwards that he heard a voice in his head, several times, insistently telling him, "Nominate him, nominate him!" in reference to Manning. He told Manning this himself, and then cautioned him to prudence and moderation, because he knew the unsoundness of many of the other bishops in England, and what trouble Manning would have with them.

Manning was a Providential "exception" figure like Pius X himself, and I think undoubtedly a saint. And his achievements are astonishing, even more so when you realise he was 43 when he entered the Church! He was known as the Cardinal of the Seven Sacraments because he had been married and widowed when an Anglican.

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Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:42 am
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New post Re: DEI VERBUM 5. vs. DEI FILIUS c. 4 in JPII's ECCLESIA DEI
John Lane wrote:
Also, you will probably find this interesting (on Ratzinger's false philosophy): http://www.waragainstbeing.com/
I just read his "Article 16: The Modernist Deconstruction of Fatima" and was quite impressed! Thanks for sending that

I like the title War Against Being, too, since that is certainly what the anti-Thomists wage.

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«The Essence & Topicality of Thomism»: http://ar.gy/5AaP
by Fr. Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.
e-Book: bit.ly/1iDkMAw

Modernism: modernism. us.to
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Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:59 am
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New post Re: DEI VERBUM 5. vs. DEI FILIUS c. 4 in JPII's ECCLESIA DEI
John Lane wrote:
Alan Aversa wrote:
Manning translated Dei Filius; it's got to be good.


Manning wrote Dei Filius. :)

OK, that isn't true, but he was the single most effective and committed man for the definition of papal infallibility and for the success of the Council, apart from Pius IX himself.

Manning's importance to the history of the Church, not just in England but universally, in the nineteenth century would be difficult to over-estimate. He was a giant. He knew everybody, and was, as far as it was in his power, on good terms with everybody. He was the student and friend of Perrone and Ballerini, and was at the death-bed of the Jesuit Father-General Beckx. Dr. Ward didn't publish a word that had not been passed by Manning. When The Tablet, which had been causing the Church difficulties, was said to be in some financial trouble, he purchased it and turned it into an organ of the Church in England. He visited Montalembert on his deathbed. He closed Wiseman's eyes in death. He was at the death-bed of Pius IX, who said to him, "Addio carrissimo."

When Wiseman died and Pius IX had to decide whom to nominate to the vacant see of Westminster, he ordered a month of public masses and prayers, and the Holy Father prayed himself particularly earnestly for light. He said afterwards that he heard a voice in his head, several times, insistently telling him, "Nominate him, nominate him!" in reference to Manning. He told Manning this himself, and then cautioned him to prudence and moderation, because he knew the unsoundness of many of the other bishops in England, and what trouble Manning would have with them.

Manning was a Providential "exception" figure like Pius X himself, and I think undoubtedly a saint. And his achievements are astonishing, even more so when you realise he was 43 when he entered the Church! He was known as the Cardinal of the Seven Sacraments because he had been married and widowed when an Anglican.
Thanks for the short biography of Card. Manning. He sounds like quite an interesting character, especially since I often hear him compared/contrasted to Card. Newman. The Cardinal Manning Society has many good resources I should check out.

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«The Essence & Topicality of Thomism»: http://ar.gy/5AaP
by Fr. Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.
e-Book: bit.ly/1iDkMAw

Modernism: modernism. us.to
blog: sententiaedeo.blogspot. com
Aristotelian Thomism: scholastic. us.to


Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:04 am
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New post Re: DEI VERBUM 5. vs. DEI FILIUS c. 4 in JPII's ECCLESIA DEI
Pax Christi !


And contrast this from John 23rd at his death bed, and repeated by all the revolutionary post Vatican ii not yet officially names anti popes....



Quote:
a quotation of Pope John XXIII as on his deathbed (24 May 1963):

Today more than ever ... we are called to serve man as such, and not merely Catholics; to defend above all and everywhere the rights of the human person, and not merely those of the Catholic Church. Today’s world, the needs made plain in the last fifty years and a deeper understanding of doctrine have brought us to a new situation ... It is not that the Gospel has changed, it is that we have begun to understand it better. Those who have lived as long as I have ...were enabled to compare different cultures and traditions, and know that the moment has come to discern the signs of the times, to seize the opportunity and to look far ahead.




JP11 also stated that Vatican II was a " new pentecost"............ all of a sudden all " christians were part of the church"........


Pure Modernism....


Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:10 am
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New post Re: DEI VERBUM 5. vs. DEI FILIUS c. 4 in JPII's ECCLESIA DEI
Vince Sheridan wrote:
Quote:
a quotation of Pope John XXIII as on his deathbed (24 May 1963):

Today more than ever ... we are called to serve man as such, and not merely Catholics; to defend above all and everywhere the rights of the human person, and not merely those of the Catholic Church. Today’s world, the needs made plain in the last fifty years and a deeper understanding of doctrine have brought us to a new situation ... It is not that the Gospel has changed, it is that we have begun to understand it better. Those who have lived as long as I have ...were enabled to compare different cultures and traditions, and know that the moment has come to discern the signs of the times, to seize the opportunity and to look far ahead.




JP11 also stated that Vatican II was a " new pentecost"............ all of a sudden all " christians were part of the church"........


Pure Modernism....
It's Modernism and modernism (cf. "Modern Man's Superiority Complex").

As I quoted above:
"[T]he further off a thing is the less distinctly is it seen; wherefore those who were nigh to Christ's advent had a more distinct knowledge of the good things to be hoped for," and "those who were nearest to Christ, wherefore before, like John the Baptist, or after, like the apostles, had a fuller knowledge of the mysteries of faith." (Summa II-II q. 1 a. 7 ad 1 et 4, "Whether the articles of faith have increased in course of time?")

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«The Essence & Topicality of Thomism»: http://ar.gy/5AaP
by Fr. Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.
e-Book: bit.ly/1iDkMAw

Modernism: modernism. us.to
blog: sententiaedeo.blogspot. com
Aristotelian Thomism: scholastic. us.to


Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:32 pm
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New post Re: DEI VERBUM 5. vs. DEI FILIUS c. 4 in JPII's ECCLESIA DEI
You might be interested in this article: «“Magisterium or living tradition?”, Fr. Gleize denounces a false dilemma»

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«The Essence & Topicality of Thomism»: http://ar.gy/5AaP
by Fr. Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.
e-Book: bit.ly/1iDkMAw

Modernism: modernism. us.to
blog: sententiaedeo.blogspot. com
Aristotelian Thomism: scholastic. us.to


Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:15 am
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New post Re: DEI VERBUM 5. vs. DEI FILIUS c. 4 in JPII's ECCLESIA DEI
Bp. Williamson wrote in his recent Eleison newsletter:
Quote:
Number CCXLVIII (248)

14 April 2012
CONCILIAR AMBIGUITY

Imagine a strong and well-armed foot-soldier who in hot pursuit of the enemy walks into a quicksand. That is what it is like for a brave Catholic armed with the truth who ventures to criticize the documents of Vatican II. They are a quicksand of ambiguity, which is what they were designed to be. Had the religion of man been openly promoted by them, the Council Fathers would have rejected them with horror. But the new religion was skilfully disguised by the documents being so drawn up that they are open to opposite interpretations. Let us take a clear and crucial example.

From section 8 of Dei Verbum comes a text on Tradition which John-Paul II used to condemn Archbishop Lefebvre in 1988: “A/ Tradition...comes from the Apostles and progresses in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. B/ There is a growth in insight into the realities and words that are passed on. This comes about in various ways. C/ It comes through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts. D/ It comes from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which they experience. E/ And it comes from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession to the apostolate, the sure charism of truth.”

Now true Catholic Tradition is radically objective. Just as common sense says that reality is objective, meaning that objects are what they are outside of us and independently of what any subject pretends that they are, so the true Church teaches that Catholic Tradition came from God, and is what he made it, so that no human being can in the least little bit change it. Here then would be the Catholic interpretation of the text just quoted: “A/ With the passage of time there is a progress in how Catholics grasp the unchanging truths of the Faith. B/ Catholics can see deeper into these truths, C/ by contemplating and studying them, D/ by penetrating more deeply into them, and E/ by the bishops preaching fresh aspects of the same truths.” This interpretation is perfectly Catholic because all the change is placed in the people who do indeed change down the ages, while no change is placed in the truths revealed that make up the Deposit of Faith, or Tradition.

But see now how the same passage from Dei Verbum can be understood not objectively, but subjectively, making the content of the truths depend upon, and change with, the subjective Catholics: “A/ Catholic truth lives and grows with the passing of time, because B/ living Catholics have insights that past Catholics never had, as C/ they discover in their hearts, within themselves, newly grown truths, D/ the fruit of their inward spiritual experience. Also, E/ Catholic truth grows when bishops preach things unknown before, because bishops can tell no untruth (!).” (In other words, have the religion that makes you feel good, but make sure that you “pay, pray and obey” us modernists.)

Now here is the huge problem: if one accuses this text from Dei Verbum of promoting modernism, “conservative” Catholics (who conserve little but their faith in faithless churchmen) immediately reply that the real meaning of the text is the Traditional meaning first given above. However, when John-Paul II in Ecclesia Dei Adflicta used this text to condemn Archbishop Lefebvre, and therewith the Consecrations of 1988, obviously he can only have been taking the text in its modernist sense. Such actions speak far louder than words.

Dear readers, read the text itself again and again, and the two interpretations, until you grasp the diabolical ambiguity of that wretched Council.

Kyrie eleison

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«The Essence & Topicality of Thomism»: http://ar.gy/5AaP
by Fr. Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.
e-Book: bit.ly/1iDkMAw

Modernism: modernism. us.to
blog: sententiaedeo.blogspot. com
Aristotelian Thomism: scholastic. us.to


Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:32 am
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