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New post New guy in Rome
They elected a Jesuit! He picked a novel name for a pope- Francis


Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:20 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Completely ordained in the new rite.

I read that he is a modernist who has not 'allowed' the Tridentine Mass in Argentina.

Cristian - aren't you from Argentina?


Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:45 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Francis... As in Assisi IV? An "ecumenical pope"? Or as in Xavier, a pope who tells the people that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church?


Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:50 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
More of the same...or worse. :cry:

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Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:03 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Jorge Mario Bergoglio.

Sheesh. I don't think I am going to waste much time researching his position on Catholic orthodoxy....

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Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:08 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Larie wrote:
Completely ordained in the new rite.

I read that he is a modernist who has not 'allowed' the Tridentine Mass in Argentina.

Cristian - aren't you from Argentina?



Yes completely liberal and modernist. I hope the "conservatives" will finally declare the See vacant... and so the SSPX :)

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Leon Bloy


Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:12 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Thank you, Cristian. Sadly, no surprise.

In a statement released to the media, it was said that he chose Francis after St. Francis of Assisi. I suspect we will see an Assisi IV soon enough...


Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:21 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Cristian Jacobo wrote:
Larie wrote:
Completely ordained in the new rite.

I read that he is a modernist who has not 'allowed' the Tridentine Mass in Argentina.

Cristian - aren't you from Argentina?



Yes completely liberal and modernist. I hope the "conservatives" will finally declare the See vacant... and so the SSPX :)


Christian,

I was looking forward to hearing what you thought about him. He is from your neck of the woods, which makes you our resident expert on him. :D Thanks for letting us know about him.

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Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:26 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Cristian Jacobo,

Can you provide any English links, or tell us yourself, what demonstrates his prior disappearance into the heresy of Modernism? I would like to hear of at least one specific heresy that he has espoused rather than rely on conjecture. I will be happy to "avoid [him] as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs" if I know that he has truly disqualified himself from the papacy.

(And I don't think celebrating the new mass is definitely a disqualification.)

Thanks, in advance.


Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:35 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Never mind.

"Argentine Catholics and Jews came together to celebrate Hanukkah and Christmas together at a ceremony attended by current Pope and then Cardinal of Buenos Aires Jorge Bergoglio."

From multiple internet sources.


Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:17 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Here is an example of Bergoglio "blessed" by a protestant minister....


Attachments:
bergo.jpg
bergo.jpg [ 9.72 KiB | Viewed 109317 times ]

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Leon Bloy
Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:27 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
This just out from Rorate Caeli:

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/0 ... alist.html

This was sent to them by someone who lives in Buenos Aires, Marcelo González.

Quote:
The Horror!

Of all the unthinkable candidates, Jorge Mario Bergoglio is perhaps the worst. Not because he openly professes doctrines against the faith and morals, but because, judging from his work as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, faith and moral seem to have been irrelevant to him.

A sworn enemy of the Traditional Mass, he has only allowed imitations of it in the hands of declared enemies of the ancient liturgy. He has persecuted every single priest who made an effort to wear a cassock, preach with firmness, or that was simply interested in Summorum Pontificum.

Famous for his inconsistency (at times, for the unintelligibility of his addresses and homilies), accustomed to the use of coarse, demagogical, and ambiguous expressions, it cannot be said that his magisterium is heterodox, but rather non-existent for how confusing it is.

His entourage in the Buenos Aires Curia, with the exception of a few clerics, has not been characterized by the virtue of their actions. Several are under grave suspicion of moral misbehavior.

He has not missed any occasion for holding acts in which he lent his Cathedral to Protestants, Muslims, Jews, and even to partisan groups in the name of an impossible and unnecessary interreligious dialogue. He is famous for his meetings with protestants in the Luna Park arena where, together with preacher of the Pontifical House, Raniero Cantalamessa, he was "blessed" by Protestant ministers, in a common act of worship in which he, in practice, accepted the validity of the "powers" of the TV-pastors.

This election is incomprehensible: he is not a polyglot, he has no Curial experience, he does not shine for his sanctity, he is loose in doctrine and liturgy, he has not fought against abortion and only very weakly against homosexual "marriage" [approved with practically no opposition from the episcopate], he has no manners to honor the Pontifical Throne. He has never fought for anything else than to remain in positions of power.

It really cannot be what Benedict wanted for the Church. And he does not seem to have any of the conditions required to continue his work.

May God help His Church. One can never dismiss, as humanly hard as it may seem, the possibility of a conversion... and, nonetheless, the future terrifies us.

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Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:36 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
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It really cannot be what Benedict wanted for the Church.


Surely, they jest!


Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:44 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
"Pope" Francis praying with those in false religions and celebrating Hanukkah in a Jewish temple:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... keaWNH2kCE



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Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:53 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
TKGS wrote:
Quote:
It really cannot be what Benedict wanted for the Church.


Surely, they jest!

Indeed. After all, "Pope" Frankie got a two-thirds majority of the cardinals' votes, so you can bet your grandmother's prized silverware that most novus ordo "Catholics", and the vast majority of the novus ordo clergy, believe the same way he does.

Heck, I've read that he was apparently the runner-up in the 2005 conclave.

Hostility to the traditional Mass? You bet! At the local novus ordo parish, multiple people have threatened to walk away if any priest there so much as brings it up.

It's also interesting to see traditionalists in Argentina immediately calling out how modernist he is. I don't remember this happening in Germany back when Ratzinger was elected. I'm guessing the novus ordo establishment has decided that your average liberal idiot novus ordo "Catholic" is truly their bread and butter, and they have finally written off real Catholics like us as irrelevant.

It's almost a relief.


Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:19 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
If it weren't so scary it would be hilarious: the PBS News Hour has some pundit, a so-called "Catholic", on there right now calling Frankie "....doctrinally conservative...." !!!!!!

Most obviously, not one of these so-called "Catholics" and/or news people have even a clue about what is truly Catholic doctrine.

It is enough to make one weep.

And John Vennari just sent out one of his weekly (or more often) news flashes saying, that Frankie may convert (to what, he doesn't say) and asking everyone to pray for this jerk.

When ARE these people going to wake up?

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Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:16 am
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Vince Sheridan wrote:
They elected a Jesuit! He picked a novel name for a pope- Francis
Or he picked the name from the novel Vicar of Christ "about an American war hero (Declan Walsh) who becomes the Ambassador to Italy, Supreme Court Justice, after the death of his wife a Trappist monk--and then gets elected pope, taking the name Francis." :)

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Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:34 am
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New post vehemently opposed to True Mass and Summorum Pontificum
He's vehemently opposed to the True Mass:

No mention of Bergoglio on the Argentinian Una Voce site. This Argentinian Juventutem webpage says:
Quote:
I agree with Wanderer that Cardinal Bergoglio—and with him, all those follower him—has resisted the Pope, astutely and firmly opposing the difusion of the Traditional Mass in his Archdiocese, as we have already said in a previous post. [linked below]
It refers to this article, which says (italics in original):
Quote:
We are told that an Episcopal Vicar who later became Bishop of a provincial capital south of Buenos Aires spoke smilingly: "Bergoglio has a plan to boycott the Motu Proprio without Rome realizing."
As the article says, the priest Bergoglio installed to do the "Extraordinary Form" completely botched the rubrics and used the "Ordinary Form" calendar such that Mass attendance dropped 97% and thus the True Mass went extinct in the Conciliar Church diocese of "Malos Aires."

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Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:06 am
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Mike wrote:
This just out from Rorate Caeli:

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/0 ... alist.html

This was sent to them by someone who lives in Buenos Aires, Marcelo González.

Quote:
The Horror!

Of all the unthinkable candidates, Jorge Mario Bergoglio is perhaps the worst. Not because he openly professes doctrines against the faith and morals, but because, judging from his work as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, faith and moral seem to have been irrelevant to him.



Very interesting. Note the comments below the Rorate article - multiple trads describing this fellow as an open Modernist, etc. This is new. So I presume we won't be seeing any more arguments against sedevacantism along the line that one cannot be sure the man is really a heretic, he's an orthodox thinker surrounded by heretics who tie his hands, etc. All that should now be dead and buried. All know that this bloke is a heretic, a devotee of the new Conciliar religion, implacably hostile to the old and true religion.

They'll also insist that he's pope. The SSPX USA district email newsletter (not sure if it's actually vetted by any of the priests before it goes out) announced "habemus papam" instantly the news came out, so apparently there was no need to see who the claimant was and ask whether he is a Catholic.

Perhaps Robert Siscoe's article appeared just in time.

What a mess!

But we have to be glad for small mercies. This fellow isn't likely to fool Bishop Fellay and Co.!

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Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:27 am
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New post Bergoglio's theology
To get a sense of his theology, see his paper "LA VIDA CONSAGRADA Y SU MISION EN LA IGLESLA Y EN EL MUNDO" ("The consecrated life and its mission in the Church and the world"; Google translation).

He cites De Lubac… no surprise…

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Modernism: modernism. us.to
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Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:25 am
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
It was to be expected that they would choose a man like this. Their work of destruction has been a gradual process throughout the years of this crisis, and it seems that they want to inaugurate the 'next step'.

The good that might hopefully be drawn from this evil, is if the eyes of the 'conservatives' will be opened. But that does not change the fact of the disastrous influence that this man will have on the multitudes.

They have gone from hegelian 'conflict' (Ratzinger) to blatant, open progressivism.

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Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:55 am
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Benedictus wrote:
The good that might hopefully be drawn from this evil, is if the eyes of the 'conservatives' will be opened. But that does not change the fact of the disastrous influence that this man will have on the multitudes.

They have gone from hegelian 'conflict' (Ratzinger) to blatant, open progressivism.


In my experience, people who have been extremely troubled about the current situation and have openly asked how it can be that these men (i.e., John Paul 2, Benedict 16, Francis) can be pope and do all these things are the only "conservatives" who can open their eyes.

Those "conservatives" who openly condemn the sedevacantist thesis will continue to walk with their eyes closed.

John Lane wrote:
This fellow isn't likely to fool Bishop Fellay and Co.!


I would not be so quick to make such a comment. I think it is important to wait and see what "Bishop Fellay and Company" actually says in public before we assume that they will not be "fooled". From listening to Bishop Fellay at a conference a couple of years ago, I think that he will hunker down as far as the need to resist but recognize. I think he will, over a short period of time, be willing to compromise on everything but the actual celebration of the sacraments. I can't provide proof of this, obviously, but it is the feeling I get from listening to Bishop Fellay and his loyal followers.


Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:40 am
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
TKGS wrote:
I would not be so quick to make such a comment. I think it is important to wait and see what "Bishop Fellay and Company" actually says in public before we assume that they will not be "fooled".


Yes, but isn't it nice that we can debate this, instead of everybody being absolutely sure of the answer? :)

I think we're in a new situation, one which had to come eventually, but which they held off by picking Ratzinger in '05. Now, we have an open Modernist (i.e. a "progressive" in modern(ist) terminology) as "pope". That's much better than a quasi-Catholic. Not that Benedict was in any real way Catholic, but he gave lip service to the old faith, which was enough for those who desired to be deceived. It will be hard for Bergoglio to play this role. He's got his own ideas, and they are those of the Revolution par excellence. Ratzinger, the "conservative", had to negotiate or at least take into account the views and feelings of the progressives. This bloke is a progressive - he has to negotiate or at least take into account the views and feelings of the conservatives. However you look at it, the situation's different.

This from today's Sydeny Morning Herald: "Bergoglio's authorised biographer, Sergio Rubin." The reports we are getting are from Barney Zwartz and Megan Levy. Apparently the gentiles are spectators only, as usual, even in the case of a supposed papal election. What does this tell us about the electee?

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Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:37 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Mr Bergoglio's first public words after his election seem to me to be extraordinarily clear and worthy of careful analysis.

Here is the text from :the Vatican site

Quote:
Brothers and sisters, good evening!

You know that it was the duty of the Conclave to give Rome a Bishop. It seems that my brother Cardinals have gone to the ends of the earth to get one... but here we are... I thank you for your welcome. The diocesan community of Rome now has its Bishop. Thank you! And first of all, I would like to offer a prayer for our Bishop Emeritus, Benedict XVI. Let us pray together for him, that the Lord may bless him and that Our Lady may keep him.

Our Father...

Hail Mary...

Glory Be...

And now, we take up this journey: Bishop and People. This journey of the Church of Rome which presides in charity over all the Churches. A journey of fraternity, of love, of trust among us. Let us always pray for one another. Let us pray for the whole world, that there may be a great spirit of fraternity. It is my hope for you that this journey of the Church, which we start today, and in which my Cardinal Vicar, here present, will assist me, will be fruitful for the evangelization of this most beautiful city.

And now I would like to give the blessing, but first - first I ask a favour of you: before the Bishop blesses his people, I ask you to pray to the Lord that he will bless me: the prayer of the people asking the blessing for their Bishop. Let us make, in silence, this prayer: your prayer over me.

[...]

Now I will give the Blessing to you and to the whole world, to all men and women of good will.

[Blessing] [spoken instead of being chanted, and including a fairly major mistake of Latin - JSD]

Brothers and sisters, I leave you now. Thank you for your welcome. Pray for me and until we meet again. We will see each other soon. Tomorrow I wish to go and pray to Our Lady, that she may watch over all of Rome. Good night and sleep well!


1. This layman doesn't even claim to be pope, teaching and governing the universal Church. He claims to be the bishop of the local Church of Rome to which he attributes a primacy of charity in a journey which we are all making together. The job he has accepted is to evangelize the beautiful city of Rome.

2. He is so filled with the spirit of 1789 that he cannot even bear the apparent superiority of giving a blessing without first getting himself "energised" by the people. They transmit to him the power to bless him.

3. He is not even interested in collegiality: he is interested in "the people".

4. He wants the whole world to become a great brotherhood with no mention of Our Lord Jesus Christ, or even of God, as the unifying principle thereof.

5. He harnesses the goodwill of the people towards Benedict, whom he again describes as their bishop, not as pope, notwithstanding the fact that St Peter's square is chockfull of flags and banners showing that pilgrims have come for the event from all over the world.

6. Whereas the cardinal dean (or whoever announces the habemus papam, I forget) is solemn and moved, Mr Bergoglio is informal to the point of chattiness, rejects the chant, makes a mess of reading the Latin, and having finished his brief address, instead of taking the papal limousine, hops back into the minibus to spend the night with the other electors.

As has been pointed out, the awkward point about this guy is that, unlike Ratzinger, he is not even interested in doctrine and therefore might successfully avoid making any heretical pronouncements.

And of course Ratzinger knew, from the previous conclave, that Mr Bergoglio, who clearly has very different convictions and tastes, was likely to be his successor and could have avoided it by naming as "cardinals" only men of Ratzingerian views; but he did not.

And if Bishop Fellay had signed a deal with Benedict, his Society would today be in the bosom of Francis, setting off on his "journey".


Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:50 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Complementary assessment of the same event from a French site :

Quote:
Was the symbolism clear to all ?
“John-Paul IV” emerged in a plain white cassock, though surrounded by cardinals wearing the mozetta. After a speech featuring several quite clearly “ collegialist” allusions, then an invitation to prayer, beginning with an Our Father, then following through with a Hail Mary and a Glory be (and after all why not ?), he requests the prayer or blessing of the “people of God” assembled in St Peter’s Square and he bows during this blessing-prayer.
Having risen from his bow, he signals to the Master of Ceremonies who only then clothes him in the pastoral stole. Then he is ready to give the blessing (announced by the cardinal protodeacon).
Exactly as if “ John-Paul IV” was asking the “people of God” for their investiture and accepted the pastoral stole, the symbol of authority only once he had received that investiture.
Pregnant with meaning !


http://lefebvristes.forum-box.com/t1505-Le-Pape-est-elu.htm#p7554


Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:48 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
DICI has released a communiqué regarding the chief-elect of the conciliar communion. It is sad to say, but it reads almost as if it is a satirical writing, though I know that this was not the intention of the writer.

A neo-conservative blog has wrapped itself in a cloak of mourning while the press agency of the Society acts as if nothing is going on. An extremely strange contrast.

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Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:55 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
There's a simple reason he was elected: In the eyes of the world, Horhay Bergoglio has been getting widespread knee-jerk reactions from liberal "Catholics" that he's too conservative.

On NBC World News, there was a poll asking readers, "Was Pope Francis a good choice"? and about one-quarter were No's. And then I looked through the negative comments... with only ONE exception, ALL of them were slamming Bergoglio for being "conservative", a "dinosaur", "attached to old rigid dogma", "stuck in the 12th century".

There was only one comment who dinged him for being liberal and against the Latin Mass. Just one. Just goes to show that liberal loudmouths still greatly outnumber people who think like us.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013 ... ood-choice


Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:44 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
If anyone still needs proof about who this man is:

Bergoglio's Novus Ordo



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Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:16 pm
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Quote:
Sydney Archbishop George Pell, said in a statement he was delighted with the new Holy Father, a pope of acknowledged piety and proven orthodoxy who had shown an ability to take hard decisions.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/pope-franci ... 2g48m.html


Tells us more about Pell than Bergoglio...

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Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:53 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Mike, here's an earlier section of the same "mass". The Beach Boys Alleluia is a worthy introduction for the sermon, in which Bergoglio welcomes Pinocchio to his kiddie "mass" (at 2.45). Quite the charmer, is our George.

At 7.25 there is something truly shocking and revolting. What can only be described as an effigy of Our Lord is present, amongst some sacred and some fictional characters. The symbolism of that is unmistakable.



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Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:21 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Brendan wrote:
There's a simple reason he was elected: In the eyes of the world, Horhay Bergoglio has been getting widespread knee-jerk reactions from liberal "Catholics" that he's too conservative.


I'm not sure there's anything simple about the situation. The more I look into this fellow, the more disturbing the picture becomes. He's the following, as far as I can tell:

1. Very, very, intelligent
2. Very charming (excellent sense of humour, and witty)
3. A skilled administrator
4. A skilled politician
5. Ambitious
6. Vehemently opposed to tradition, especially in the liturgy

As for what he believes, his public actions scream heresy. So far he reminds me of John XXIII, on steroids, and a lot smarter.

It's therefore no surprise that non-sede trads are depressed about his election.

Trads are less likely to be fooled by him, if he behaves as he has in the past. But that's the big unknown. He's capable of writing a letter like this: http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/0 ... io-to.html

He's also capable of celebrating a Pinocchio + Jesus "mass" for children, an event which brings to mind Our Lord's terrifying words of warning to those who might scandalise the little ones. He's a classic Modernist, a Janus with one Catholic face, whilst the other one spits at God.

St. Pius X in Pascendi wrote:
[A]nimated by a false zeal for the Church, lacking the solid safeguards of philosophy and theology, nay more, thoroughly imbued with the poisonous doctrines taught by the enemies of the Church, and lost to all sense of modesty, put themselves forward as reformers of the Church; and, forming more boldly into line of attack, assail all that is most sacred in the work of Christ, not sparing even the Person of the Divine Redeemer, whom, with sacrilegious audacity, they degrade to the condition of a simple and ordinary man.


Bergoglio goes even further - he degrades Our Lord to the condition of a fictional character, a figure of fun, amongst clowns, fairies, and Pinocchio. But will we see this Janus face from now on, or will it be veiled, with only the other Catholic one visible? I suspect the latter, and that would make him extremely dangerous. Much more dangerous than Ratzinger, who is intelligent but lacks the administrative and political skill of this bloke.

This is a man on a mission. He's got a job to do, but we have no way of knowing exactly what that job is. We only know he's determined to destroy the Church. Specifically how he will go about this, I can't see that we have much data to go on. Terrifying.

A couple more passages that Bergoglio's character brings to mind:

St. Pius X in Pascendi wrote:
[N]one is more skillful, none more astute than they, in the employment of a thousand noxious devices; for they play the double part of rationalist and Catholic, and this so craftily that they easily lead the unwary into error; and as audacity is their chief characteristic, there is no conclusion of any kind from which they shrink or which they do not thrust forward with pertinacity and assurance. To this must be added the fact, which indeed is well calculated to deceive souls, that they lead a life of the greatest activity, of assiduous and ardent application to every branch of learning, and that they possess, as a rule, a reputation for irreproachable morality.


St. Pius X in Pascendi wrote:
Thus in their books one finds some things which might well be approved by a Catholic, but on turning over the page one is confronted by other things which might well have been dictated by a rationalist.


St. Pius X in Pascendi wrote:
Their general direction for the Church is as follows: that the ecclesiastical authority, since its end is entirely spiritual, should strip itself of that external pomp which adorns it in the eyes of the public.


St. Pius X in Pascendi wrote:
Regarding worship, they say, the number of external devotions is to he reduced, and steps must be taken to prevent their further increase, though, indeed, some of the admirers of symbolism are disposed to be more indulgent on this head [a la Ratzinger]. They cry out that ecclesiastical government requires to be reformed in all its branches, but especially in its disciplinary and dogmatic departments. They insist that both outwardly and inwardly it must be brought into harmony with the modern conscience which now wholly tends towards democracy; a share in ecclesiastical government should therefore be given to the lower ranks of the clergy and even to the laity, and authority which is too much concentrated should be decentralized. The Roman Congregations and especially the index and the Holy Office, must be likewise modified. The ecclesiastical authority must alter its line of conduct in the social and political world; while keeping outside political organizations it must adapt itself to them in order to penetrate them with its spirit. With regard to morals, they adopt the principle of the Americanists, that the active virtues are more important than the passive, and are to be more encouraged in practice. They ask that the clergy should return to their primitive humility and poverty, and that in their ideas and action they should admit the principles of Modernism; and there are some who, gladly listening to the teaching of their Protestant masters, would desire the suppression of the celibacy of the clergy. What is there left in the Church which is not to be reformed by them and according to their principles?


St. Pius X in Pascendi wrote:
But it is pride which exercises an incomparably greater sway over the soul to blind it and lead it into error, and pride sits in Modernism as in its own house, finding sustenance everywhere in its doctrines and lurking in its every aspect. It is pride which fills Modernists with that self-assurance by which they consider themselves and pose as the rule for all. It is pride which puffs them up with that vainglory which allows them to regard themselves as the sole possessors of knowledge, and makes them say, elated and inflated with presumption, "We are not as the rest of men," and which, lest they should seem as other men, leads them to embrace and to devise novelties even of the most absurd kind.

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:39 am
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I don´t know if you noticed it, but he said "pro multis" which is strange.

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:57 am
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
The Freemasons are happy... at least in Argentina :D

http://statveritasblog.blogspot.com.ar/ ... ntina.html

Quote:
La Masonería argentina demuestra su complacencia con la designación del nuevo Pontífice.

[Palermonline]

Masonería Argentina Designación del Cardenal

PalermOnLine Noticias. Ciudad de Buenos Aires 13 marzo, 2013

La Gran Logia de la Argentina de Libres y Aceptados Masones, institución enraizada con nuestra Patria desde 1857, saluda la designación del compatriota Cardenal Jorge Bergoglio como Papa Francisco I.

Hombre de vida austera y consagrada a sus devociones, la designación del nuevo pontífice de la Iglesia Católica supone un alto reconocimiento para la Nación Argentina.

En la Masonería Argentina, sustentada en los principios de la tolerancia, el respeto profundo a las convicciones íntimas, la libertad, la igualdad y la fraternidad, militan hermanos que profesan o adhieren a esa fe religiosa junto a otros que pertenecen a otros credos, son agnósticos o carecen de fe. En nombre de todos, la Gran Logia de la Argentina saluda al Cardenal compatriota que acaba de alcanzar tan alta distinción mundial.

Ángel Jorge Clavero

Gran Maestre

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:08 am
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John Daly wrote:
4. He wants the whole world to become a great brotherhood with no mention of Our Lord Jesus Christ, or even of God, as the unifying principle thereof.
Yes, his mention of "fraternity" twice was disturbing.

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:29 am
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Thanks for the relevant Pascendi quotes; Pascendi is manna for the soul.
John Lane wrote:
St. Pius X in Pascendi wrote:
Their general direction for the Church is as follows: that the ecclesiastical authority, since its end is entirely spiritual, should strip itself of that external pomp which adorns it in the eyes of the public.
From a Atila Sinke Guimarães article on the Miserablist Church:
Quote:
This Miserablist Church is not something new. Paul VI had already thought it necessary for the Catholic Church to abandon her symbols of sacrality in order to "not scandalize the people." He suggested that Vatican City with its magnificent Basilica, priceless history, extraordinary Palaces, and many work of arts should be abandoned. In fact, Paul VI affirmed that "the Pope should leave the Vatican, along with those who inhabit it," and "should go to live for some time with his seminarians, with his people at St. John Lateran …. At St. John’s, his cathedral, he should inaugurate a new way of governing the Church in the manner of Peter who was poor" (Evidence of this and other points on the Poor Church can be found in my book Animus delendi I, Los Angeles: TIA, 2000, pp. 399-400). By the way, this Poor Church was also the ideal of Judas Iscariot, who, when he saw St. Mary Magdalene washing the feet of Our Lord with a precious perfume, proposed that it be sold to give the money to the poor. Was it really a love for the poor? This was not exactly what the Gospel of St. John (12:6) affirmed…
He might as well go to Avignon, Argentina… Honestly, the potential for a (manifest) Great Global Schism is there.
John Lane wrote:
St. Pius X in Pascendi wrote:
Regarding worship, they say, the number of external devotions is to he reduced, and steps must be taken to prevent their further increase, though, indeed, some of the admirers of symbolism are disposed to be more indulgent on this head [a la Ratzinger].
I never thought about Ratzinger being one "of the admirers of symbolism". "Symbolism" in Pascendi means "religious formulas" that "stand midway between the believer and his faith; in their relation to the faith, they are the inadequate expression of its object".
John Lane wrote:
St. Pius X in Pascendi wrote:
They cry out that ecclesiastical government requires to be reformed in all its branches, but especially in its disciplinary and dogmatic departments. They insist that both outwardly and inwardly it must be brought into harmony with the modern conscience which now wholly tends towards democracy; a share in ecclesiastical government should therefore be given to the lower ranks of the clergy and even to the laity, and authority which is too much concentrated should be decentralized. The Roman Congregations and especially the index and the Holy Office, must be likewise modified.
Or demolished…

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:11 am
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Mr. Lane, thank you for your analysis of the new novus ordo pope. I always figured that the cardinals knew what they were doing.

I wouldn't even be surprised if Bergoglio made a show of sacrificing a certain number of pervert clergy, even cardinals, to the justice system in order to further please (and tranquilize) the masses.

I am also a bit ashamed of myself for not having read more papal encyclicals. St. Pius X and others warned all of us about the tricks they'd pull... they gave us the Modernist blueprints right out in the open, laid bare for all to see. The false 'umbleness [sic] of Bergoglio is, in addition to what Pius pointed out, also IMHO a tool to destroy the concept of hierarchy in favor of equality, which as we all know is one of the three vices of the French Revolution which is destroying the world. As with Uriah Heep, it's a front; a dog-and-pony show to keep the Marxist-imbued masses in thrall.
Cristian Jacobo wrote:
I don´t know if you noticed it, but he said "pro multis" which is strange.

I think that was Ratzinger's little contribution to keep a certain number of trads fooled: making "pro multis" the standard form in the novus ordo.

Never mind the other invalidating parts of the novus ordo consecration, or their invalid orders.
Cristian Jacobo wrote:
The Freemasons are happy... at least in Argentina :D

http://statveritasblog.blogspot.com.ar/ ... ntina.html

And the Freemasons love him? If they do, there's something seriously wrong with him! :? "John XXIII on steroids" indeed! Man the lifeboats... :idea:
Alan Aversa wrote:
John Daly wrote:
4. He wants the whole world to become a great brotherhood with no mention of Our Lord Jesus Christ, or even of God, as the unifying principle thereof.
Yes, his mention of "fraternity" twice was disturbing.

A good French Revolutionary he is!


Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:23 am
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
For anyone who reads Spanish there is a mass of very useful material about Mr Bergoglio to be found in this long article : http://fr.gloria.tv/?media=413398

I have only whipped through it so far. It's based on the interviews Bergoglio did with Sergio Rubin. It's anterior to the election and it's from a conservative viewpoint. A full translation might be worth the effort.


Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:01 am
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The leader of Spanish freemasonry also praised Joseph Ratzinger in an interview last year, calling him a 'great reformer'. So, that they are praising the present conciliar chief is nothing new, but it does show that the transfer from Ratzinger to Bergoglio was calculated.

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:51 am
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Brendan wrote:
Cristian Jacobo wrote:
I don´t know if you noticed it, but he said "pro multis" which is strange.

I think that was Ratzinger's little contribution to keep a certain number of trads fooled: making "pro multis" the standard form in the novus ordo.

Never mind the other invalidating parts of the novus ordo consecration, or their invalid orders.


Of course! My point was that these same trads may as well be fooled by things like this. I expect Bergoglio turning to the right, to a certain extent, so the conservatives (and why not the SSPX?) have some "food", so to speak.

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:35 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Cristian Jacobo wrote:
Brendan wrote:
Cristian Jacobo wrote:
I don´t know if you noticed it, but he said "pro multis" which is strange.

I think that was Ratzinger's little contribution to keep a certain number of trads fooled: making "pro multis" the standard form in the novus ordo.

Never mind the other invalidating parts of the novus ordo consecration, or their invalid orders.


Of course! My point was that these same trads may as well be fooled by things like this. I expect Bergoglio turning to the right, to a certain extent, so the conservatives (and why not the SSPX?) have some "food", so to speak.


Well, it's also interesting because he is reported to have refused to introduce Ratzinger's reforms to the vernacular translations into his archdiocese. Do you know if that's factual, Cristian?

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:42 pm
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John Daly wrote:
For anyone who reads Spanish there is a mass of very useful material about Mr Bergoglio to be found in this long article : http://fr.gloria.tv/?media=413398

I have only whipped through it so far. It's based on the interviews Bergoglio did with Sergio Rubin. It's anterior to the election and it's from a conservative viewpoint. A full translation might be worth the effort.


It does indeed look good, John. The sardonic style reminds me of Tito Cassini.


Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:44 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
John Lane wrote:
John Daly wrote:
For anyone who reads Spanish there is a mass of very useful material about Mr Bergoglio to be found in this long article : http://fr.gloria.tv/?media=413398

I have only whipped through it so far. It's based on the interviews Bergoglio did with Sergio Rubin. It's anterior to the election and it's from a conservative viewpoint. A full translation might be worth the effort.


It does indeed look good, John. The sardonic style reminds me of Tito Cassini.


I just glanced it 2 days ago and it looks interesting. The problem with the author is that he is a very well known conservative who said openly that Bergo (unlike JPII and Ratz (?)) was a formal heretic and that he could never be elected Pope. The very same day of the election he re published this work dated on 2010 but yesterday it took it out from his blog. It seems he will finally calm down and accept Bergo. Poor guy. We`ll see.

I`ve no idea about the "pro multis" but he probably did nothing (I asked a priest who lives in Bs As... still waiting :))

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:57 pm
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Cristian Jacobo wrote:
The problem with the author is that he is a very well known conservative who said openly that Bergo (unlike JPII and Ratz (?)) was a formal heretic and that he could never be elected Pope.


Do you have a record of this assertion? It would be neat to translate it and pin it somewhere prominent. :)

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:42 pm
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Benedictus wrote:
The leader of Spanish freemasonry also praised Joseph Ratzinger in an interview last year, calling him a 'great reformer'. So, that they are praising the present conciliar chief is nothing new, but it does show that the transfer from Ratzinger to Bergoglio was calculated.
This is what this article (translation) seems to claim.

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:24 pm
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Alan Aversa wrote:
Quote:
This Miserablist Church is not something new. Paul VI had already thought it necessary for the Catholic Church to abandon her symbols of sacrality in order to "not scandalize the people." He suggested that Vatican City with its magnificent Basilica, priceless history, extraordinary Palaces, and many work of arts should be abandoned. In fact, Paul VI affirmed that "the Pope should leave the Vatican, along with those who inhabit it," and "should go to live for some time with his seminarians, with his people at St. John Lateran …. At St. John’s, his cathedral, he should inaugurate a new way of governing the Church in the manner of Peter who was poor"


This new criminal is another classic hypocrite, demeaning, for his own aggrandisement, the offices he claims. It's an old trick, as stale as anything, but it still plays well to fools. So there he is, humble as humble can be, refusing the proper respect and reverence due, not to his own person, as he falsely, mendaciously, claims, but to the office which he purports to fill (but does not even possess!). There's nothing proud in fitting into the traditions of the office, and allowing it to receive the worship of the people. What is manifestly proud is to ostentatiously refuse the outward signs of respect which have been validated by immemorial tradition. Now that is stinking, singular, pride!

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:30 pm
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John Lane wrote:
Alan Aversa wrote:
So there he is, humble as humble can be, refusing the proper respect and reverence due, not to his own person, as he falsely, mendaciously, claims, but to the office which he purports to fill (but does not even possess!). There's nothing proud in fitting into the traditions of the office, and allowing it to receive the worship of the people.
Pope St. Pius X would wear his old seminary cassock while walking the streets of Rome, but in his public appearances, he'd dress as dignified for his high office as can be.

This also would be true humility: If outwardly he dressed sumptuously and dignified but wore sackcloth underneath!
John Lane wrote:
What is manifestly proud is to ostentatiously refuse the outward signs of respect which have been validated by immemorial tradition. Now that is stinking, singular, pride!
Amen.

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:40 pm
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He also thinks the Anglican Ordinariate is unnecessary.

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:44 pm
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John Lane wrote:
What is manifestly proud is to ostentatiously refuse the outward signs of respect which have been validated by immemorial tradition. Now that is stinking, singular, pride!


Hi John,

Yesterday I received in the mail a copy of Tito Casini's The Last Mass of Paul VI : An Autumn Night's Dream. Britons Publishing Company. 1971. I thought I'd share with the Forum a passage I typed out which struck me as significant, especially regarding your comment on Bergoglio's Pride masquerading as humility :

"Those who now considered the changes of the Reform to be the work of Satan saw clearly in them, above all, his pride. It emerged, that most characteristically Satanic sin, in the presumption with which men of little or no preparation presented themselves to pass judgement and contemptuous criticism on all that holiness, doctrine, and genius, working for the glory of God and the elevation of souls, had created in harmonious collaboration and handed down through the centuries, until this our day. To Popes and saints, doctors and theologians, artists and poets, to men whose works were the joy and boast of the human race, these small, insignificant people had spoken thus : All of you have been completely and unutterably wrong : none of you ever understood a single thing. --- They had addressed their mother and teacher, the Church, as follows : You have hitherto been plunged in ignorance; your teaching has been one big mistake; --- and then, ripping out the page, flinging down the text-book, they had concluded : We are the men, the bright, the bold ones. Watch us now and see how it should have been done." (p. 57-58)

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:16 pm
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Alan Aversa wrote:
This also would be true humility: If outwardly he dressed sumptuously and dignified but wore sackcloth underneath.


This is what I've read of Saint Thomas Beckett. Outwardly, he appeared with all the pomp of his office. Only after he was martyred on the steps of the altar did the people discover that under the magnificent robes he wore a flea infested hair shirt.

This Francis is clearly not a Saint Thomas, but I'll be he'll be canonized in record time by the Modernists.


Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:23 pm
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Apparently today he met with the cardinals and referred to them as "brother cardinals." He seems to be a hardcore collegialist.

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:52 pm
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John Lane wrote:
Cristian Jacobo wrote:
The problem with the author is that he is a very well known conservative who said openly that Bergo (unlike JPII and Ratz (?)) was a formal heretic and that he could never be elected Pope.


Do you have a record of this assertion? It would be neat to translate it and pin it somewhere prominent. :)


An ex seminarian of Bp Sanborn had a coffee with him and he told me all these things. No record at least of this.

Caponetto called Bergo "rabbi Bergoglio", several years ago, in the front page of his review "Cabildo", if memory serves.

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:41 pm
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I have also noticed something... I don't know if it'd mean anything, but it might.

Bergoglio is 76, but he was also the second-oldest cardinal-elector who isn't even a priest (the oldest was the cardinal from Indonesia who was too sick to come), and the oldest seemingly-fluently Italian-speaking unpriest. The next such Italian-speaking unpriest cardinal is Scola, who is 71, and was of course one of the top papabili (again, there's an unpriest cardinal from India who is 73). All other unpriests in the College of Cardinals are in their 60s or younger.

Why would they want an older unpriest? I don't know... perhaps they wanted somebody older just because he'd be smarter and more devious. After all, the quality of education in novus ordo seminaries has undoubtedly degenerated juuust a little a bit since the 1960s, so they wanted somebody who was educated when the curriculum was still more rigorous. As for wanting an unpriest... that's a bit puzzling. But given the fact Bergoglio was elected, AND that Scola was a papabile, seems to suggest they prefer unpriests over priests.

It's also interesting that JP2 was the youngest bishop in Poland when he was consecrated, and was made a cardinal (by Montini) when he was only 47. If one subscribes to the Siri thesis, he was clearly chosen as the last valid bishop who couldn't be pope because Siri was still living. After 26 years, Siri was long dead, so the Modernists would now be free to elect unbishops, and now unpriests as well, to the novus ordo papacy.

Paul VI's act of barring cardinals over 80 from voting was meant to weed out any remaining valid bishops who might still hold traditional views in the 1978 conclaves, although nowadays it probably doesn't really serve any useful purpose, even to Them. Or maybe, again, they are unsure about the loyalties of some of the oldest cardinals remaining, even though all the cardinals were appointed by Montini, Wojtyla, or Ratzo.
John Lane wrote:
This new criminal is another classic hypocrite, demeaning, for his own aggrandisement, the offices he claims. It's an old trick, as stale as anything, but it still plays well to fools. So there he is, humble as humble can be, refusing the proper respect and reverence due, not to his own person, as he falsely, mendaciously, claims, but to the office which he purports to fill (but does not even possess!). There's nothing proud in fitting into the traditions of the office, and allowing it to receive the worship of the people. What is manifestly proud is to ostentatiously refuse the outward signs of respect which have been validated by immemorial tradition. Now that is stinking, singular, pride!

Or, rather, 'umble as 'umble can be. He's probably the 'umblest person going. The Uriah Heep "pope". :lol:
TKGS wrote:
Alan Aversa wrote:
This also would be true humility: If outwardly he dressed sumptuously and dignified but wore sackcloth underneath.


This is what I've read of Saint Thomas Beckett. Outwardly, he appeared with all the pomp of his office. Only after he was martyred on the steps of the altar did the people discover that under the magnificent robes he wore a flea infested hair shirt.

This Francis is clearly not a Saint Thomas, but I'll be he'll be canonized in record time by the Modernists.

Didn't Our Lord or somebody tell us, that when we fast, not to make it obvious that we are doing so? This sort of degradation of the office would certainly not qualify!
Alan Aversa wrote:
Apparently today he met with the cardinals and referred to them as "brother cardinals." He seems to be a hardcore collegialist.

Again, just as with asking the people to bless him, he seems to be promoting the equality vice harder than even Montini. Plus, there's that bit about the "priesthood of the people".


Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:00 pm
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Brendan wrote:
asking the people to bless him
This is actually a misconception that liberals seem to have perpetuated. He asked them to pray to God that He bless him.
Brendan wrote:
he seems to be promoting the equality vice harder than even Montini. Plus, there's that bit about the "priesthood of the people".
He used that phrase?

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TKGS wrote:
... he'll be canonized in record time by the Modernists.


They already have! :)

I guess after he's dead they'll have to deify him, since he's already a mere saint.

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Edward T. Horan III wrote:
Yesterday I received in the mail a copy of Tito Casini's The Last Mass of Paul VI : An Autumn Night's Dream. Britons Publishing Company. 1971. I thought I'd share with the Forum a passage I typed out which struck me as significant, especially regarding your comment on Bergoglio's Pride masquerading as humility :

"Those who now considered the changes of the Reform to be the work of Satan saw clearly in them, above all, his pride. It emerged, that most characteristically Satanic sin, in the presumption with which men of little or no preparation presented themselves to pass judgement and contemptuous criticism on all that holiness, doctrine, and genius, working for the glory of God and the elevation of souls, had created in harmonious collaboration and handed down through the centuries, until this our day. To Popes and saints, doctors and theologians, artists and poets, to men whose works were the joy and boast of the human race, these small, insignificant people had spoken thus : All of you have been completely and unutterably wrong : none of you ever understood a single thing. --- They had addressed their mother and teacher, the Church, as follows : You have hitherto been plunged in ignorance; your teaching has been one big mistake; --- and then, ripping out the page, flinging down the text-book, they had concluded : We are the men, the bright, the bold ones. Watch us now and see how it should have been done." (p. 57-58)


Priceless! Isn't his writing just... delightful?!

His description could apply so aptly to so many of the key characters of the 1960s, a period of unparalleled mediocrity which praised itself constantly. Roncalli (his Diary informs us how holy he is, how pure in intention, humble, etc.), Suenens, Murray, and, par excellence, Malachi Martin!

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:04 pm
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John Daly wrote:
For anyone who reads Spanish there is a mass of very useful material about Mr Bergoglio to be found in this long article : http://fr.gloria.tv/?media=413398

I have only whipped through it so far. It's based on the interviews Bergoglio did with Sergio Rubin. It's anterior to the election and it's from a conservative viewpoint. A full translation might be worth the effort.


John, did you see this passage?

Quote:
The whole first part of his book is devoted to prove that he was very near to succeeding John Paul II. Some people even say "The Jesuit" is intended as his platform for the next conclave. In the style of the European cardinals, as Giacomo Biffi with more interesting and profitable "Memorie e digressioni an Italian di cardinale", His Eminence wanted to have his own biographical account. This is the danger that must mobilize us: that a declared enemy of truth such as Cardinal Bergoglio may arise as papabile with impunity.

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:20 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
John Lane wrote:
John Daly wrote:
For anyone who reads Spanish there is a mass of very useful material about Mr Bergoglio to be found in this long article : http://fr.gloria.tv/?media=413398

I have only whipped through it so far. It's based on the interviews Bergoglio did with Sergio Rubin. It's anterior to the election and it's from a conservative viewpoint. A full translation might be worth the effort.


John, did you see this passage?

Quote:
The whole first part of his book is devoted to prove that he was very near to succeeding John Paul II. Some people even say "The Jesuit" is intended as his platform for the next conclave. In the style of the European cardinals, as Giacomo Biffi with more interesting and profitable "Memorie e digressioni an Italian di cardinale", His Eminence wanted to have his own biographical account. This is the danger that must mobilize us: that a declared enemy of truth such as Cardinal Bergoglio may arise as papabile with impunity.


Here it is!

Quote:
Bergoglio se sabe papabile. Toda la primera parte de su libro está dedicada a probar que estuvo muy cerquita de suceder a Juan Pablo II. Hay quienes dicen incluso que “El Jesuita” pretende ser su plataforma electoral para el próximo Cónclave. Al mejor estilo de los purpurados europeos, como Giacomo Biffi con sus más que interesantes y aprovechables “Memorie e digressioni di un italiano cardinale“, Su Eminencia ha querido tener su propio relato biográfico. Este es el peligro que debe movilizarnos: que un enemigo declarado de la Verdad como el Cardenal Bergoglio pueda presentarse impunemente como papabile.


The first words not translated say: "Bergoglio know he is papabile."

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:01 pm
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
Benedictus wrote:
DICI has released a communiqué regarding the chief-elect of the conciliar communion. It is sad to say, but it reads almost as if it is a satirical writing, though I know that this was not the intention of the writer.

A neo-conservative blog has wrapped itself in a cloak of mourning while the press agency of the Society acts as if nothing is going on. An extremely strange contrast.



Is this the DICI article you are writing about Benedictus? :

Cardinal Bergoglio and the Society of St. Pius X in Argentina
15-03-2013
Filed under From Rome, News
DICI obtained the opinion of Fr. Christian Bouchacourt, District Superior of South America, on the evening of the Pope’s election.
Cardinal Bergoglio wishes to be a poor man among the poor. He cultivates a militant humility, but can prove humiliating for the Church. His appearance in the loggia of St. Peter’s in a simple cassock without his rochet and mozzetta is a perfect illustration. He is a fine politician… And idealistic apostle of the poverty of the 70’s, he is completely turned towards the people, the poor, but without being a disciple of the theology of liberation.
Very conscious of the dilapidated state of his clergy, he did nothing to fix things. Never has the seminary of Buenos Aires had as few seminarians as today. It is a disaster, as have been the liturgies presided over by the “Cardinal of the Poor.” With him, we risk to see once again the masses of Paul VI’s pontificate, a far cry from Benedict XVI’s efforts to restore to their honor the worthy liturgical ceremonies.
He was firmly opposed to abortion. But while he wrote a beautiful letter to the Carmelites of Buenos Aires against the homosexual “marriage” bill – which was unfortunately voted through in the end – he had a regrettable discourse read during the protest against this bill, in which the name of Our Lord was not pronounced even once, while the Evangelistic pastor who spoke before him to excite the crowd delivered a more courageous discourse…(see DICI #219, July 24, 2010).
During an ecumenical meeting, he knelt to receive the blessing of two pastors.
He is a man of consensus, who hates confrontations. He kept his distance from the Catholics who denounced the blasphemous expositions that were held in Buenos Aires.
I have met him 5 or 6 times and he has always received me with benevolence, seeking to grant me what I wished, without going out of his way to overcome obstacles….
(sources : SSPX – DICI #272, March 15, 2013)


It seems to me that he could be the one to persuade the SSPX hierarchy back into full communion with the NO. The last sentence in the article above really bothers me. Will he grant the SSPX all that they wish? Let's say they do get an agreement that gives into all of their demands, so what? They then will be incorporated into the NO church, a few years go by and Frankie boy meets his demise (after all, he doesn't look to be particularly healthy) and voila, the NO reneges on the deal!


Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:06 pm
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They don't have to renege for it to be catastrophic, Lance. The mere fact of doing a deal will wreck the Fraternity, utterly.

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Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:25 am
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New post Re: New guy in Rome
John Lane wrote:
They don't have to renege for it to be catastrophic, Lance. The mere fact of doing a deal will wreck the Fraternity, utterly.



Oh yes I agree John, I'm just pointing out the truth that if a deal finally comes to fruition, no matter how much is given to the Society, it will all be for naught.


Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:21 am
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