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Hi Everyone,

I'm a traditional Catholic who has recently concluded that Bergoglio has spoken heresy from the chair of Peter...I've been on the fence for the past several months, but I think his latest encyclical sealed the deal for me. Honestly, this has been a difficult and rather unpleasant conclusion for me to come to, and I'm trying not to despair! The realization has turned my world upside down...I mean, I used to take the pope being "Catholic" as a given..."Is the Pope Catholic?" :!: :?:

Now having accepted a vacancy as the most logical explanation for the mess in the Church, I'm starting to realize all that follows from accepting the possibility of what follows if well, the "pope," is not the Pope!

So, that's me. That's where I'm at.

Interestingly enough, I came to the same conclusion as Father Kramer after reading Bergoglio's latest encyclical...and then I was surprised to read on a website that he had come to the same conclusion (though I understand he maintains that Benedict is the true Pope). So at least I'm not the only one who was put over the edge by the latest encyclical!

Quoting Kramer:
"Pope" Francis in Evangelii Gaudium n. 247: "We hold the Jewish people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked". This text is an explicit profession of heresy, directly opposed to the solemn dogmatic definition of Pope Eugenius III and the Ecumenical Council of Florence, and the doctrine taught by the supreme magisterium of Pope Benedict XIV in Ex Quo Primum, set forth repeatedly and explicitly citing the definition of Florence, to wit, that the Mosaic covenant has been "revoked" and "abrogated". I have been saying for years that when a "pope" will officially teach explicit and clear heresy flatly contradicting the infallibly defined dogma of the Catholic faith, then you will know that he is the false pope prophecied in many Church approved prophecies and Marian apparitions. St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alohonsus Liguori, St. Antoninus and Pope Innocent III all teach that when the pope demonstrates himself to be a manifest heretic, i.e. a plainly manifested public heretic, he ceases to be pope (or, if already was a public heretic he was invalidly elected) because he is not a Catholic -- not a member of the Catholic Church. Bellarmine explains that the Roman Pontiff is the visible head of the Church, and the head is a member. One who is not a member cannot be the head, and therefore the election to the supreme pontificate of a public heretic is canonically null & void. The heresy of Bergoglio in no. 247 is such a clear cut case of manifest, public heresy, expressed in stark, unequivocal terms, that it can be said without doubt that if this proposition of no. 247 is not manifestly heretical, then nothing else can be said to be so. It is morally impossible that one who manifestly displays such clearly expressed contempt for a defined dogma of faith by plainly denying it, can be believed to validly hold the office of Roman Pontiff. St. Francis of Assisi foretold of the uncanonically elected pope who would not be "a true pastor but a destroyer". Bergoglio plainly fits the description."

Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:30 pm
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Rebecca wrote:
I used to take the pope being "Catholic" as a given..."Is the Pope Catholic?" :!: :?:

A couple of years ago, my family was visiting my parents-in-law. My wife's father is a fallen away Catholic and her mother is irreligious. The kids were working on some sort of craft project and there was plenty of discussion going on when, as part of the discussion, Grandmother, in answering a rather obvious question from one of my children, said, "Is the pope Catholic?" The room became completely quiet for a few seconds and one of my sons said, "I say...No."

Grandmother was very confused--and still is. She simply does not understand us, or religion, which she considers a mere social club like the Elks or the American Legion.

The whole situation was, at the time, very amusing, and, quite frankly, I still smile when I think of it. But please say a prayer for the conversion of my in-laws.

Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:06 pm

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:31 am
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Location: Moscow, Idaho, U.S.A.
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First, welcome to the forum. You will learn much here that is valuable.

Secondly, please don't even think of despairing concerning the Church: if you read the history of the Church very closely, you will soon learn that confusion such as exists today has been seen in the Church before this...although not to this extreme extent...and the Church and Her members have lived through it.

In point of fact, there have been at least 40 very significant antipopes in the history of the Church, not counting these latest. That works out to 2 per century.

So, we are not alone.

Our Lord assured us that the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, and we believe Him.

Believe what Our Lord told us, practice your Faith, and keep calm. God has the situation completely in hand, although most of us cannot see exactly what He is doing. He always does what is best for us.

Kenneth G. Gordon

Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:20 pm
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Yes, since the moment that he was "elected" I decided to be very quiet and just wait to see if it would be possible that he convert, I was hoping until the very end to cling to my sedeplenism strongly to the end. Anything other then Sedevacantism! Now I knew that if he continued on the same program that he had in Argentina that he would have 0 authority over the Church, ipso facto making him an anti-Pope. Unfortunately, not only is his program the same but even more aggressive arguably then what he had in Argentina. This is of course a good thing, because it really helps for perplexed good Orthodox Catholics see how the Conciliar Church is a distinct non Catholic gnostic sect. In terms of Sedevacantism it would be a valid distinction to say pre-Bergoglio and post-Bergoglio. The difference in degree of the heretical public acts of the Conciliar Church whose heads are the anti Popes of the Vatican II "springtime" before and after Bergoglio is significant. To the intellectual it was easy to see because all the root principles and the same distorted Gospel is there to those who care to read it, but for the average Catholic with rudimentary knowledge of apologetics etc... It was more difficult for them to connect all the dots, but this man is a total different story. You see how seriously disturbed conservative pro-lifer's are "at Francis" and this just comes to show that this is truly the sensus Catholicus at work. Those who willingly resist this will surely be guilty of sin, and only the Lord God will be able to know the difference. The sign is clear, stay away from that Conciliar sect as far as possible. Pray, pray, pray. Do whatever you can do, but it is clear that the whole modus operandi of conservative Catholic's is foolish. The whole "lets work from the inside" and stick with the FSSP et al... Has been proven looking back with 20/20 vision into apostasy. It is easy to see that now, but to those who lived during those years, it is definitely understandable how they were deceived. Even the elect will be deceived, and this is why we must take our faith seriously and follow our Catholic conscience faithfully. Too many resist the conclusions which they know to be true, it can be understandable if they don't understand but at a certain point when the evidence is so overwhelming to turn a blind eye is definitely not prudent, nay it can even lead to your damnation if it is culpable.

So that now there is no doubt that from top to bottom this sect is leading 100% to the destruction of souls. It took the Jesuits to take down the remnants of the Church left within that gnostic sect who were ignorant of what was going on. So now it took a Jesuit to finish the job, and this is why there is no surprise...

There were several things that I would consider writing on the sky screaming to us that this man is not a true Pope, but a counterfeit wolf who dares to sit against the Chair of Peter. One of them is that he is attempting to "canonize" a man who was an apostate... We know that infallibility of canonizations is protected by the Holy Ghost.

Now some might argue why were you not convinced of the previous candidates that were really doubtful like Mother Theresa of Culcutta or someone like Msgr. Escriva etc... Well the problem with me is that the evidence on both sides seemed pretty strong, I had heard some good and bad things. Their lives are riddled with lots of misinformation so that I figured it might be possible that some vicious people were mispainting them etc... So I cringed to the idea that their canonizations would merely mean they are in heaven, a la SSPX style of treating the post Vatican II "saints" (second hand saints)... This reminds me very much of the idea that some in the SSPX have about the new rite of ordination... They say its still valid, but does not possess the "fullness" of the priesthood... I asked them how they could attempt to explain that theologically... They came back with no answer, I even attempted to answer that question myself, but from what I have read nothing has come back so far. The best that I can think of is high mass and low mass. High mass is more pleasing to God, because the splendour of the liturgy is greater and God is more honored in that way. The german liturgist Fr. Gihr in his monumental work on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass agrees with this, but to take this idea and apply it to the rite of ordination is a bit of a stretch.

I wanted someone that is undoubtedly 100% undeniable proof of someone that would clearly be indefensible such as JP II and J XXIII. If they attempted to canonize such a man, then yes it would be a deal breaker for me. To my surprise they gave me two for the price of one! Both at the same time, wow that is like writing on the wall screaming to heaven for vengeance... Fortunately we can pick from many different heresies through words and deeds that he has done (Bergoglio) that is a real deal breaker for any Catholic who still has some good will + some basic understanding of the faith. Logically speaking if one of them is an anti-Pope all of them would also follow. This is why Ratzinger would also be an anti-Pope because he is submitting to an anti-Pope, this would be assuming in the first place that his resignation was invalid in the first place. This is the same refutation of the Siri Thesis that many hold, albeit mistakenly. Siri despite whatever threats he received would be an anti-Pope also because he submitted to anti-Popes, then the problem also becomes who is his anti-Pope successor etc... Most especially from Paul VI onwards... The more likely scenario is that they were never true Popes in the first place, but we can only know with a certain degree of certainty from the public acts until after heresy has been published either in deed or word, also the canonical warning is necessary to have the pertinacity necessary which was there after the Ottaviani Intervention. You also have +Lefebvre be a thorn in the side of Montini who clearly was not interested in doctrine, but his new religion of man. Founded on the principles of the French Revolution codified by yours truly the secret brethren.

Glad to see that you have had the grace to see what is going on, I would also caution you to be careful of who you lend your ear to. The problem is that there are souls who are scrupulous and they are too clever for their own good. They are infected with a pride that manifest itself through their outward religiosity, sometime known as "self-righteous" individuals. Sadly enough there are many self-professed sedevacantist wolves who do not have the Catholic faith because they are outwardly schismatics. They refuse to be in communion with Catholics who are sedeplenist (confused or ignorant) such as indult or SSPX or independent mass centers. They have a neo donatist/novatianist/jansenist spirit very sadly sometimes this is even found among very rigorist SSPX type who are a-priori anti-sedevacantist. The keywords to look out for is that they believe in a very tiny small remnant (granted we are small in numbers comparatively speaking) and outside of their little group which consist of the Church there is no salvation. The SSPX-SO is very much infected by this spirit which as of yet is not schismatic, but definitely getting to that point by recommending their faithful to avoid SSPX masses since they are "compromised." You either believe someone is a non-Catholic which you can avoid completely, but if they are not then you have no business or authority telling them they cannot receive the life giving sacraments of the Church. I very much agree with John Lane, John Daly and many of the positions they hold in this regard. Suppose that we are wrong and we keep communion with someone who might not be a Catholic, we would rather err on the safe side then break communion. The only time you should break communion would be when a person has been clearly explained what the Church teaches with much love, they should be given time to reflect on this and if they refuse to hear the word of the Church, then yes break communion. When it comes to Catholicity it should be innocent until proven guilty, and not guilty by presumption of associating with the Novus Ordo. Yes it might be a general principle that most in the Novus Ordo have lost the Catholic faith, this is true in general but to presume this and make it a Universal is a whole other story.

Pray for me and I will pray for you. Welcome and keep the faith! God Bless you and your family + particular intentions you might have. The Church Triumphant is joyful indeed and so should the Church militant about your realization of the current crisis of the Church. Gaude et laetare, Virgo Maria. Amen.

+Pax Christi+

Laudare, Benedicere et predicare...
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Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:53 am
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