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Ordinary Magisterium of an Ecumenical Council?
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Author:  Cristian Jacobo [ Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  Ordinary Magisterium of an Ecumenical Council?

Hi everyone!

I need some help :D

I was asked if there are examples of an ordinary magisterium of an Ecumenical Council.

I replied to him that everything taught in an Ecumenical Council is, by that reason, part of the extraordinary magisterium, according, for instance, to Canon 1323.

He then quoted to me Fr. Lucien saying that the term "ordinary/extraordinary" magisterium may have a twofold meaning:

a) According the person or manner: if it is solemn, extraordinary, singular in the Church, then it is extraordinary.

b) According the words used: if it uses anathemas, solemn judgments, definitions, then it is extraordinary.

So, something may be extraordinary in the first way and at the same time "ordinary" in the second one.

Fr. Lucien goes further quoting Card. Van Rossum saying that the decree of the Council of Florence regarding the matter of the sacrament of order was "ordinary magisterium" (and fallible... and in fact wrong! :shock: ).

Now... the division given by Fr. Lucien seems a novelty to me (not that I master this subject, anyway), but nonethless the opinion of Cardinal Van Rossum, in as much as the decree of the Council of Florence was "ordinary magisterium", was held by other theologians as well.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

Author:  Jorge Armendariz [ Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ordinary Magisterium of an Ecumenical Council?

Can you post the particular decree that he claims is a part of the ordinary magisterium?

From what I understand something in a Council can be disciplinary and dogmatic. It is only those thing pertaining directly to faith and morals, that are dogmatic. Anything dealing with the government of the Church is disciplinary. My guess he is referring to something dealing with the sacrament of Order's with respect to the government of the Church.

Can you also quote which theologians, maybe just their books and which other ones held this position. That might help me able to look for it with the books I have. Thanks!

Author:  Julian [ Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ordinary Magisterium of an Ecumenical Council?

As far as I understand Fr. Lucien (according to L'Infaillibilite du Magistere Ordinaire et Universel de L'Eglise, 1984), his basic idea is that the true difference between the ordinary and extraordinary Magisterium is the manner of pronouncing the judgement, while the gathering of Bishops in one place is something more of an accidental difference. As the whole Episcopate in union with the Pope already exercises an ordinary Magisterium when dispersed in the world, their Magisterium does not become extraordinary merely by the fact that they are assembled. After clarifying this point, Fr. Lucien goes on to write that a Council may only employ its ordinary magisterium, even though "dans la plupart des cas", in the majority of cases, a Council speaks solemnly/with its extraordinary magisterium.
Now, unfortunately, Fr. Lucien does not give any examples for the ordinary magisterium of an Ecumenical Council ... and I can't think of any myself nor could I find a similar opinion in the classical treatises.

Do you have the actual quote of Card. Van Rossum? I would love to read that, as I only have second hand sources which don't give any direct quotes. I do certainly hope that the good Cardinal is not saying that the ordinary magisterium was wrong?! Still, I would concur that the decree was not a disciplinary one ("Quinto, ecclesiasticorum Sacramentorum veritatem pro ipsorum Armenorum tam praesentium quam futurorum faciliore doctrina sub hac brevissima redigimus formula.")

Well, that probably didn't help much, I'm sorry.

Author:  John Lane [ Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ordinary Magisterium of an Ecumenical Council?

Cristian Jacobo wrote:
Fr. Lucien goes further quoting Card. Van Rossum saying that the decree of the Council of Florence regarding the matter of the sacrament of order was "ordinary magisterium" (and fallible... and in fact wrong! :shock: ).


Dear Cristian,

I have seen several examples of theologians regarding the Decree as mistaken (the later theologians, based upon their reading of Pius XII's Sacramentum Ordinis, the earlier ones based upon the same arguments which led Pius XII implicitly to allow their view in the wording of Sacramentum Ordinis).

But this explanation seems to me to be excellent: http://jloughnan.tripod.com/ordinarm.htm

It's nice to see John Loughnan has done something worthwhile (in transcribing this text for the Web). :)

Author:  Cristian Jacobo [ Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ordinary Magisterium of an Ecumenical Council?

Jorge Armendariz wrote:
Can you post the particular decree that he claims is a part of the ordinary magisterium?


It is here (DZ 701):

Quote:
The sixth sacrament is that of Order; its matter is that by the giving of which the Order is conferred: thus the priesthood is conferred by the giving of a chalice with wine and of a paten with bread ... The form of the priesthood is as follows: "Receive power to offer sacrifice in the Church for the living and the dead, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost."


Quote:
Can you also quote which theologians, maybe just their books and which other ones held this position. That might help me able to look for it with the books I have. Thanks!


Ok, here is a list of them:

There are 3 opinions on this decree:

1) It is a truly conciliar definition, infalible, and belonging to the solemn and extraordinary magisterium of the Church. Tapper, Billot, etc.

2) It is a truly doctrinal exposition of the ordinary magisterium of the Church. This is the opinion of Van Rossum (De esentia Sacramentum ordinis, pag. 174-208); Straub (De Ecclesia, 2, 462 f); de Guibert; Galtier and Hugon.

Both Van Rossum and Straub think this doctrinal declaration is falible, since it comes from the ordinary magisterium.

3) It is merely disciplinar. It is a practical instruction on the practice of the Roman Church at that time. Mabillon, Denzinger, Quera, etc.

Author:  Cristian Jacobo [ Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ordinary Magisterium of an Ecumenical Council?

Julian wrote:
As far as I understand Fr. Lucien (according to L'Infaillibilite du Magistere Ordinaire et Universel de L'Eglise, 1984), his basic idea is that the true difference between the ordinary and extraordinary Magisterium is the manner of pronouncing the judgement, while the gathering of Bishops in one place is something more of an accidental difference. As the whole Episcopate in union with the Pope already exercises an ordinary Magisterium when dispersed in the world, their Magisterium does not become extraordinary merely by the fact that they are assembled. After clarifying this point, Fr. Lucien goes on to write that a Council may only employ its ordinary magisterium, even though "dans la plupart des cas", in the majority of cases, a Council speaks solemnly/with its extraordinary magisterium.


Indeed, that´s his opinion on this.

Quote:
Now, unfortunately, Fr. Lucien does not give any examples for the ordinary magisterium of an Ecumenical Council ... and I can't think of any myself nor could I find a similar opinion in the classical treatises.


True! In fact, the example taken from the Council of Florence was from this friend of mine and not from Fr. Lucien.


Quote:
Do you have the actual quote of Card. Van Rossum?


No, I don´t. It´s suppose to be somewhere here: De esentia Sacramentum ordinis, num. 174-208.

Quote:
I would love to read that, as I only have second hand sources which don't give any direct quotes. I do certainly hope that the good Cardinal is not saying that the ordinary magisterium was wrong?!


He does! I do have a little article written right after Sacr. Ord., by a benedictine called "Antecedentes de la Constitución Apostólica Sacr. Ordinis", where the author (A. Franquesa), explaining Van Rossum says: "The Pope, then, could err in this subject, since he didn´t taught "ex Cathedra", and in fact he erred".

Quote:
Still, I would concur that the decree was not a disciplinary one ("Quinto, ecclesiasticorum Sacramentorum veritatem pro ipsorum Armenorum tam praesentium quam futurorum faciliore doctrina sub hac brevissima redigimus formula.")


That´s my opinion as well and I was convinced by Billot, when I read him like a year ago!

Author:  Cristian Jacobo [ Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ordinary Magisterium of an Ecumenical Council?

John Lane wrote:
Cristian Jacobo wrote:
Fr. Lucien goes further quoting Card. Van Rossum saying that the decree of the Council of Florence regarding the matter of the sacrament of order was "ordinary magisterium" (and fallible... and in fact wrong! :shock: ).


Dear Cristian,

I have seen several examples of theologians regarding the Decree as mistaken (the later theologians, based upon their reading of Pius XII's Sacramentum Ordinis, the earlier ones based upon the same arguments which led Pius XII implicitly to allow their view in the wording of Sacramentum Ordinis).


It is interesting to note that the "contradiction" between those two documents can be easily resolved by having recourse to the "generic" institution of the sacraments. Something Pius XII explicitly accepts as an opinion and in fact that´s what the Church has always accepted in practice, for obvious reasons.

Quote:
But this explanation seems to me to be excellent: http://jloughnan.tripod.com/ordinarm.htm


Thank´s very much for the link!

I loved this part! :D

Quote:
The contradiction, therefore, between the Decrees of Eugenius IV_and Pius XII is purely apparent, and there is no need to have recourse to Cardinal van Rossum's desperate remedy


But not what it follows :D

Quote:
Strictly speaking, it is not incompatible with the doctrine of Papal infallibility to say that Eugenius IV was in error and misled the Armenian Church, since in issuing the decree he was not acting as shepherd and teacher of all Christians but only of the Armenians. However, we should be extremely reluctant to allow that a Decree promulgated in a solemn session of an Ecumenical Council, ratified by a Pope and signed by numerous other ecclesiastical dignitaries, contains a doctrinal error

Author:  Cristian Jacobo [ Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ordinary Magisterium of an Ecumenical Council?

Now, back to the original question...

My friend wants to know basically if the dispersion of the Bishops troughout the world is a necessary condition for the existence of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium or if this kind of magisterium may exist in an Ecumenical Council as well.

Any thoughts? :D

Thanks in advance!

Author:  Cristian Jacobo [ Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ordinary Magisterium of an Ecumenical Council?

As an aside... for those reading French here is what the DTC has to say about the decree https://archive.org/stream/dictionnaire ... 8/mode/2up

Author:  John Lane [ Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ordinary Magisterium of an Ecumenical Council?

Cristian Jacobo wrote:
Now, back to the original question...

My friend wants to know basically if the dispersion of the Bishops troughout the world is a necessary condition for the existence of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium or if this kind of magisterium may exist in an Ecumenical Council as well.

Any thoughts? :D

Thanks in advance!


Dear Cristian,

It strikes me as a cart-before-the-horse kind of question. The abstract notion, "ordinary and universal magisterium" exists as shorthand for the concrete reality that when the bishops, not gathered together in council, all teach the same thing, they cannot err. This is the faith of the Church - that the ordinary daily teaching activity of the bishops is infallible. There is a distinct point of faith that when the bishops unite in council and solemnly proclaim the doctrine of the Church they cannot err. In both cases we see that the Church has asked herself what the qualities of these activities are, and recognised that she regards both as infallible. That seems to me to be the accurate way to see the matter, and the proper way to understand the terms, "extraordinary magisterium," and "ordinary, universal, magisterium." The practice came before the abstract or speculative or scholastic theological categorisation and arrangement.

So, getting to Lucien's actual question, I think it perfectly legitimate to ask if the bishops, gathered together in council, but not solemnly proclaiming anything, but rather only voting and approving texts in a pastoral manner, can err? I repeat, the question is legitimate and the answer may be as he says - that they are infallible in this activity. But what seems unwarranted is to label this activity the "ordinary, universal, magisterium" and then argue, based essentially upon that identification, that the Church has already spoken on the question. She simply hasn't. It's a new question, and the answer has not been given by the Church. Indeed, the answer does not appear to have been given by any theologians, let alone by the Church!

Author:  Mike Larson [ Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ordinary Magisterium of an Ecumenical Council?

John Lane wrote:
So, getting to Lucien's actual question, I think it perfectly legitimate to ask if the bishops, gathered together in council, but not solemnly proclaiming anything, but rather only voting and approving texts in a pastoral manner, can err? I repeat, the question is legitimate and the answer may be as he says - that they are infallible in this activity.


And if he is right, if they are infallible in this activity, then it would follow that the bishops of the world lost their offices, at the latest, when the council documents were ratified. More likely, though, it would have been earlier, since manifestation of the ordinary magisterium does not require a particular unified act but is merely the unified teaching of the bishops of the world as each of them goes about proclaiming that teaching. In the case of the council, unified fallible teachings would have been apparent well before formal articulation and ratification. Taking this further, one could speculate that the bishops were already NOT the true Church's magisterium practically upon arrival at the council, or at least as soon as errant ideas started to take hold among them.

Author:  John Lane [ Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ordinary Magisterium of an Ecumenical Council?

Of course, the approval of the pope is required for all infallible doctrinal activity, ordinary or extraordinary. So we don't need to postulate that the bishops lost their offices, only that the pope didn't approve of the texts. This points to a vacant See of Rome. That's Lucien's argument.

Author:  Mike Larson [ Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ordinary Magisterium of an Ecumenical Council?

John Lane wrote:
Of course, the approval of the pope is required for all infallible doctrinal activity, ordinary or extraordinary. So we don't need to postulate that the bishops lost their offices, only that the pope didn't approve of the texts. This points to a vacant See of Rome. That's Lucien's argument.


Yes, I see. The bishops' apostasy does not precede the empty chair.

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