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 Religious Liberty... 
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Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 4:15 pm
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New post Religious Liberty...
The debate over Dignatatis Humanae has fascinated me over the past couple of years, and just recently I read Fr. Harrison's (affectionately mentioned in another post) book on the topic. Is there any information that anyone on this board could offer in light of said book, especially concerning the claim that Quanta Cura was only directed at Lamennais since the aforementioned document (QC) refers to the "insanity" in the cotext of being restrained by "NO authority WHATSOEVER" rather than (DH) "within due limits" of a public order based on the objective moral order? Thanks to any and all replies if anyone can follow the question :) .


Wed May 31, 2006 3:56 pm
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I have only read Dignatatis Humanae. My understanding of rights in moral theology is that no one has a right do do anything evil. To have a right to something means you can do it unencumbered. That means with no reprocussions. This does not mean that people do not have their free will to do what ever they like. It just means that they don't have right to do it. Therefore no one has a right to practice anything except Catholicism. Now if we take Dignatatis Humanae to be speaking in a secular sense, then what the document is saying is that no secular Government can prevent people from practicing whatever religion they choose. This seems fair enough as long as the government is not Catholic.


Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:25 am
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St. Justin said:

"Now if we take Dignatatis Humanae to be speaking in a secular sense, then what the document is saying is that no secular Government can prevent people from practicing whatever religion they choose. This seems fair enough as long as the government is not Catholic."

This is not the sense that Paul VI, JPII, and Benedict XVI take it however; they believe that no government should be Catholic and that the dignity of the human person requires that all men be free to choose the religion of their choice...as a positive right. If one accepte that all men are saved through the incarnation, which unites all men to Christ regardless of what they choices they may make regarding worship, then I fail to see why any of this matters. If Dignatatis Humanae is truely vague as is sometimes argued, then these "Popes" have "clarified" it for us.


Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:36 am
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I don't agree that these Popes have said this. I believe this is someones's interpretation of what they said or what they think they believe! When you read what they say you have to read the whole thing. I have read most of what they have said and I don't read them that way. Origen's point of view on all men being saved was condemned by the Church quite a long time ago. So I would find it hard to believe that any Pope would resurrect a known heresy.


Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:51 am
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(1) "The Archbishop's (Lefebvre) stand on the question of religious liberty is less familiar to English-speaking traditionalists than his stand on the Mass but it is no less important as it involves the very nature of the Church. He refused to sign Dignitatis Humanae, the Council's Declaration on Religious Liberty, because he considered it incompatible with previous authoritative and possibly infallible papal teaching."
Michael Davies (R.I.P.) Excerpt from: "Introduction: Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre," 20 June 1979
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1158427/posts


(2) "Pope Leo XIII issued warnings that went unheeded by most Catholics. Pope Pius XI issued an Encyclical Letter, Quas Primas, that was, as the late Michael Davies and the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre pointed out, effectively vitiated by Dignitatis Humanae. Indeed, the great Social Teaching of the Church has been redefined to the suit the purposes of the conciliarist agenda. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has endorsed the American model of pluralism.
Pope John Paul II himself had a statement issued in his name on February 12, 2005, that praised the separation of Church and State in France, if "understood correctly" in light of the Church's social doctrine. The fact that Pope Saint Pius X condemned the very thing praised by Pope John Paul II is simply ignored (and is the subject of a companion piece to be posted with this article.)
In spite of all of this, however, the perennial teaching of the Catholic Church on the State and the Social Reign of Christ the King must be proclaimed no matter the lack of fruit that may result therefrom and no matter the opposition from individuals seeking the approval of the "conservative" intelligentsia in this country, or the opposition of the Holy See itself. The “only” fruit that might result from a fidelity to this doctrine might be the salvation of our own immortal souls."
Thomas A. Droleskey, Ph.D., February 12, 2005, excerpt from: "The Time is Always Right to Proclaim the Social Reign of Christ the King" http://www.christorchaos.com/TheTimeIsAlwaysRight.html

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Our Immaculate Queen give you every grace and blessing,
Ardith (Abba)


Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:11 am
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I believe most “new” heresies are just old heresies resurrected…and Modernism is the synthesis of all heresies according to Pope St. Pius X.

A few direct quotes from JPII:

“From now on and always, without regret and without turning back, God shall be with all mankind, becoming one with it, to save it and give it to his Son, the Redeemer…For all time, the Incarnation bestows upon man his unique, extraordinary and ineffable dignity”
(JPII March 25, 1981 speech to a general audience, O.R. 31.03.81, p. 12)

“Accordingly, what is in question here is man in all his truth, in his full magnitude. We are not dealing with the "abstract" man, but the real, "concrete", "historical" man. We are dealing with "each" man, for each one is included in the mystery of the Redemption and with each one Christ has united himself for ever through this mystery. Every man comes into the world through being conceived in his mother's womb and being born of his mother, and precisely on account of the mystery of the Redemption is entrusted to the solicitude of the Church. Her solicitude is about the whole man and is focused on him in an altogether special manner. The object of her care is man in his unique unrepeatable human reality, which keeps intact the image and likeness of God himself 92. The Council points out this very fact when, speaking of that likeness, it recalls that "man is the only creature on earth that God willed for itself" 93. Man as "willed" by God, as "chosen" by him from eternity and called, destined for grace and glory-this is "each" man, "the most concrete" man, "the most real"; this is man in all the fullness of the mystery in which he has become a sharer in Jesus Christ, the mystery in which each one of the four thousand million human beings living on our planet has become a sharer from the moment he is conceived beneath the heart of his mother.” (JPII, Redemptor Hominis 13.3)

“This man is the way for the Church-a way that, in a sense, is the basis of all the other ways that the Church must walk-because man-every man without any exception whatever-has been redeemed by Christ, and because with man-with each man without any exception whatever-Christ is in a way united, even when man is unaware of it: "Christ, who died and was raised up for all, provides man"-each man and every man- "with the light and the strength to measure up to his supreme calling” (JPII, R.H. 14.3)

Something from the first quote just struck me...the phrase "From now on and always"...was it this way in the past as well?

I just don't see how you read this any differently from the way I initially stated it.


Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:37 am
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Hello,

I highly recommend Archbishop Lefebvre's own book on the subject ;

" Religious Liberty Questioned" by Bishop Lefebvre-translated from French by Fr. Jaime Pazat de Lys.
Angelus Press isbn 1-892331-12-8

In Christ our King,
Vincent


Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:59 am
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Robert,
I don't see how your quotes have anything to do with Religious Liberty. In any case I see nothing wrong with the quote if you understand the difference between Justification, Redemption and Salvation as taught by the Church. The Church has always taught that mankinds redemption was due to the vicarious atonement of Christ on the Cross. Salvation is a different matter. Although Our Lord willed that all men be saved. In actual fact all men are not saved. Mankind is saved by the individuals response to God's Grace. This is the primary objective of the Church, that all men be shown the Light so that they may respond positively to the Grace given them.


Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:03 am
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St. Justin:

The quotes do not have anything to do with religious liberty. My point was that if all men are saved, what possible reason can there be to restrict religious liberty...it no longer matters at all.

You wrote:

"In any case I see nothing wrong with the quote if you understand the difference between Justification, Redemption and Salvation as taught by the Church. The Church has always taught that mankinds redemption was due to the vicarious atonement of Christ on the Cross. Salvation is a different matter. Although Our Lord willed that all men be saved. In actual fact all men are not saved. Mankind is saved by the individuals response to God's Grace. This is the primary objective of the Church, that all men be shown the Light so that they may respond positively to the Grace given them."

The above bold in your comment is the issue here...I believe you are saying that we must interpret JPII's words so they concur with what the Church teaches. Then what good is the Pope? Are we not to read and understand what he is saying in his own words?

"with each one Christ has united himself for ever through this mystery" (JPII, Redemptor Hominis 13.3)

Each man is united to Christ forever through the mystery of the incarnation. How else can you read the above lines?

I understand that you will repeat the Church's teaching...is that what JPII actually says however?


Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:23 am
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"with each one Christ has united himself for ever through this mystery" (JPII, Redemptor Hominis 13.3)
Through the incarnation Christ became man. Therefore in His humanity he will be united with us forevever. Thats how I understands it.


Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:03 pm
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St. Justin:

Sorry, I should have included the entire passage...

"We are dealing with "each" man, for each one is included in the mystery of the Redemption and with each one Christ has united himself for ever through this mystery." (JPII, Redemptor Hominis 13.3)

Your reading of this passage said this:
"Through the incarnation Christ became man. Therefore in His humanity he will be united with us forevever. Thats how I understands it."

Is that what the words of this passage actually say?

The words say that each man is included in the mystery of the Redemption and is united to Christ forever through this mystery.

Can a soul that is united to Christ forever go to hell?


Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:00 pm
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